ALPS In Brief Podcast - Episode 90: Building Valuable Bar Partnerships ft. Angela Armstrong

In this mini episode of ALPS In Brief, our Bar & Affinity Partner Strategist Rio Peterson sits down with Angela Armstrong, Executive Director at the Maine State Bar to discuss the importance of bar partnerships, how they create value for members, and the pivotal role bars play in the legal community.

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Transcript: 

Rio Lane: 

Hello everybody. Welcome to this installment, a mini- installment, of the ALPS in Brief Podcast. I am your host, Rio Lane, and I am here today with Angela Armstrong, who is the Executive Director of the Maine State Bar. Hello. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Hello. Good afternoon. 

Rio Lane: 

Thank you for joining us. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Thank you. 

Rio Lane: 

I'm very happy we got this chance so we're going to sit down and chat and, yeah, I'm excited to learn more about the bar and the impact that partnerships have had on it. Why don't we start with you telling us a little bit about yourself, so what's your background, how did you end up at the bar? 

Angela Armstrong: 

So I am originally from Maine. I did all my schooling there, and then I went to college in New York, at the United States Military Academy, which then after that I owed five years in the Army. That's the minimum, that's what you owe for going there. And I did that but then near the end I had my first child and my husband was also military and we wanted someone around, that we weren't both getting deployed. So I got out of the military and I got to stay home with my daughter for a year and a half, but then I decided that I needed to go back to work. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, weird, awesome. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yeah, that's a familiar story. So I got a job at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke, in the chancellor's office, and I was his special assistant, which I could like it to being like kind of his chief of staff. I did that for about four years, and then my husband got out of the military and we moved back to Maine. He's not from Maine but we moved back to Maine to raise our girls. As I was looking for a job, there was an opening at the Maine State Bar Association for the Deputy Executive Director, and the reason I had heard about that was because my dad was an attorney in Maine and he heard about it in the Bar Journal. And so, I wrote to the executive director and said I'd really like to interview for this job. And shortly thereafter, I got the job as deputy. That was back in 2004, so I'm about to celebrate my 20th year this October with the Bar Association. I became the executive director in July, just celebrated my 11-year anniversary in July of 2013, I became the executive director. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, awesome, congratulations. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yeah, thanks. 

Rio Lane: 

So you're not a lawyer. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I am not a lawyer. 

Rio Lane: 

No, I love it. I love that when I meet executive directors who aren't lawyers by trade, I feel it brings a really unique perspective to the Bar Association. It's really interesting. 

Angela Armstrong: 

There's a lot of talk about whether you should be or shouldn't be. I think a lot of times you'll find with bar associations that are mandatory, a lot of them tend to be attorneys because of the types of things that happen in a mandatory bar. The Maine State Bar Association is a voluntary bar association, and so you're really running a business. You don't need a law degree to do that and, in fact, sometimes lawyers, they're great lawyers but they're not necessarily great business people. I have my Master's in business administration so it worked out. And I happened to do some reception work at my dad's law firm when I was in high school. I'm sure that helped me. 

Rio Lane: 

I bet it did. Yeah, that's awesome. Oh, yeah, interesting. Yeah, that is interesting and that's a really good point, it is like running a business, it is a business, yeah, especially for a voluntary bar. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Correct. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. So in addition to being voluntary, can you tell us a little bit more about the bar? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Sure. So our bar association that is voluntary is approximately 2,800 members. We've been staying steady around the 3,000 mark for several years now. This year we've seen a little bit of a decline. I think that all the different terms, silver tsunami, whatever you want to call it, aging of the bar ... 

Rio Lane: 

Silver tsunami? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Aging of the bar, has really ... I was having this discussion with Chris Neubold actually the other day and it's like we knew it was coming, we've been talking about it for years. But then, COVID kind of stretched things out because people couldn't retire, people are working longer generally. And so, I think we're finally really starting to see that. Plus, in Maine, we are a very old state. If we're not the oldest, we're right up there. And so, we have about 2,800 members. We are currently slotted for a staff of 10. I have seven on staff right now and one that's about to retire so I'm hiring for four positions. My staff is amazing and they work really hard, and they have for the last few years because we've had a lot of long-term employees, and that's really great, until they all start retiring. 

Rio Lane: 

Yes. 

Angela Armstrong: 

And then, you're stuck without having anybody and it's really hard to replace those positions. We are one of those states that has a lot of rural areas so we're part of that grouping of states that has issues getting attorneys into the legal desert ... 

Rio Lane: 

Legal desert, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

The southern half of our state, basically Portland and south. And then, up the coast is pretty well off but anything north of where I'm from, and Augusta where I live, in the Augusta area, is a lot less. There's a concentration in the Bangor area but majority of our members, at least half, are in the southern half of the state. 

Rio Lane: 

Wow, got it. Is that one of the biggest challenges you think that the bar is going to have to navigate coming up, is that? 

Angela Armstrong: 

I think two of our biggest are the amount of retiring attorneys we're going to be having over the next several years, and the rural attorneys because our lawyer referral program is struggling because we can't provide referrals to people in those areas. Now, think times have changed because we can do a lot more through Zoom and through other types of media, but sometimes you just want to be looking at your attorney in the face and talking to them. As I said, we're older. 

One of the things that might help us is we're getting a lot of folks that are coming into Maine that are already attorneys, so that may help us fill that gap a little bit, but we're not getting the younger folks staying, and if they are staying, they're still in the southern part of the state. I think those are going to be two really big issues. The other huge issue that Maine is dealing with generally is the indigent defense. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, yes. 

Angela Armstrong: 

It's mandated but we do not have the attorneys to do the work. Several years ago, we, whoever, the royal we, were telling people don't go to law school, we have too many lawyers, there's just too many of you. And you get this debt, and now we're paying for it because we do not have ... There's plenty of work, we just don't have the attorneys. 

Rio Lane: 

Don't have attorneys, yeah. That's interesting. Do you think there's any type of solution or anything that would help encourage young folks to go to law school? I know Project Rural Practice offers debt forgiveness in exchange. Is that something that you think would work or could be? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Well, I think, like a lot of states, we're not a very rich state so to speak. We have a lot of people that have homes in Maine but don't live in Maine, and the people that do live in Maine don't have a lot of money. When you live in Maine, you know that you're not going to make as much as somebody in another state doing the same job. 

Rio Lane: 

Got it, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

That being said, our legislature doesn't have a lot of money to play with you, and so we have a couple of tax incentives, but it's not for a lot of money if they go into a rural area, and it's not loan forgiveness or anything like that. We just don't have the programs in place in the legislature for that as of right now. I mean, we're struggling enough to deal with the indigent defense issue so I don't foresee that happening anytime soon. And then, as I think with a lot of folks that have these rural counties, even if you can get the attorney to go there, the spouse or the significant other doesn't want to go there because aren't jobs for them. Or if it's a single, they don't have the nightlife, they don't have the chance to meet other people their age or do things. And so, most of the time we see people that were already living in those areas go to school and then come back. 

Rio Lane: 

Okay, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

But that's not enough. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Yeah, so absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely a pretty widely spread issue, which is, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

More and more states are facing it, I think. 

Rio Lane: 

Hopefully, someone will come up with a creative cost-effective way to help because ... 

Angela Armstrong: 

And the law school debt, it's hard, you got to go somewhere where you can make money. 

Rio Lane: 

It's incredible. Yeah, it kind of blows my mind. I mean, even law school in Canada where I live, it's considered expensive but it's nothing like America, it's a staggering amount of debt that people get saddled with. 

Angela Armstrong: 

We only have one law school in Maine. 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Let's shift focus a little bit. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Okay, I know, it's too much of a downer. 

Rio Lane: 

As much as I would like to keep talking about it but I think ... 

Angela Armstrong: 

I'd love to solve all the problems. 

Rio Lane: 

Yes, if only. So yeah, I did want to shift focus and talk about, what are some of the partnerships that you have? I know that, like many bars, you have a member benefits program, you partner with different vendors and organizations. I'm curious to know what are your thoughts, I guess number one, on a member benefits program? Do you think that's something that is of value to your members? 

Angela Armstrong: 

I do. That's why we try to poll our members and ask them what is useful for them. It doesn't help us if we're providing a benefit that we think they want but they don't want. And so, for a voluntary bar association it's very important because that's what we have to offer. They don't have to belong to us. We have to show them value for their membership and we're going to show them value by providing them resources, and tools, and discounts that help them in their practice of law. And so, our relationships with, for example, ALPS or our legal research partner, Decisis. There several that are out there. Those are intended to help them with their practice of law and hopefully save them some money and some time. And we want to do the research for them. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, right, absolutely. 

Angela Armstrong: 

That's what a lot of it is, doing the research for them so that when you say, "Okay, this is what we can offer you," there's choices, but these ones we believe in, these ones we feel like we have a good partnership with. We trust this company, you can too. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I do think ... I mean, obviously I'm biased because I do partnerships as well. But I have heard from a lot of lawyers often, especially for solos and small firms, something that really is difficult for them is taking that time to vet different providers, different products, different things. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Huge. 

Rio Lane: 

It is time-consuming, and especially if you're not used to doing it, it can be difficult to even know where to begin so I think it's definitely something that is appreciated. Yeah. What kind of things do you look for in a partner? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Communication. 

Rio Lane: 

Yay. 

Angela Armstrong: 

And we have those ones that I haven't been in communication with recently and it makes me wonder what are we getting out of this? 

Rio Lane: 

Exactly, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I can't articulate to my members what they're getting if I don't have a good communication with the partner. In recent years, we've started an audit and a lot of it is, I don't even have the right contact information for them because they have turnover just like all of us. And so, if the new person that's coming in, or if they don't get a new person, doesn't contact us, we don't know. And so, sometimes you find out by accident, so communication is key. Trust. Trust that they're going to follow through with what they've promised us and our customers. And customer support, customer support of our members. I've noticed our relationship with Decisis is fairly new, we haven't had that long, and they've been so responsive. 

Now that's a lot of technology and so people are struggling. It might be that the Wi-Fi's just not working, but they are willing to talk to them. I know ALPS is the same way. I know our members can call ALPS and talk to somebody. That's huge. I mean, it's great if there's the other pieces where either the partnership provides a discount or something to the member, or if they don't do that but they offer sponsorship dollars for us to help keep our costs lower. Generally, those are always great as well because then we have money to market and do all that stuff. But when you're talking about the intangibles, that's the bigger piece I think, people feel like they're taken care of. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, yeah, which is important. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Well, that's why you belong to something. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. So what has your partnership with ALPS been like? Do you feel that we can we communicate? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yes. Oh, absolutely. ALPS is really, I think, unique. I mean, obviously unique because of your actual product that you offer, your products, your service that you offer, and I have been very lucky to have the opportunity to come to the ALPS offices and see how things work and meet the people. And you know that they genuinely care. They care about providing service. They care about our members. They don't want to just take the money for the product. They don't want to just say, "We're going to give you coverage but it's about the money." It isn't, it's about the relationships and I think that's one of the hugest benefits that ALPS brings to the table, the biggest benefits, is that it's about relationships. Because, again, it falls back to what I just said, people want to feel like they're being taken care of, our members do. That's why they belong to us because they don't have to belong to us. 

Rio Lane: 

Yes. 

Angela Armstrong: 

And so, Maine has endorsed ALPS for years. I mean, it was endorsed maybe around the time I came on board so I've spent probably close to 20 years, if not 20 years, maybe a little more. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. That's a nice long partnership. 

Angela Armstrong: 

It is a nice long partnership. 

Rio Lane: 

It is, yeah. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I know we're small, we are not bringing in tons of money for ALPS or all that, but I think we have a good relationship with ALPS. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, I think so too. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yeah, it's been really good. 

Rio Lane: 

Well, good. I'm happy to hear that because I personally think it's very important that, I mean, as a partner, regardless of your size, size doesn't matter. 

Angela Armstrong: 

No, it doesn't. I mean, there are big states and small states, all of our attorneys need assistance. 

Rio Lane: 

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and I totally agree. I think at the end of the day it is so important for your members to ultimately feel that they have someone who has their back. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Correct. Which is what ALPS has always said, we want to have your back. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah. Which is, yeah, awesome. Well, good. Yeah. Well, good. I'm really glad that we have been a good partner for you and we will continue to be a good partner for you. 

Angela Armstrong: 

You guys have great communication too ... 

Rio Lane: 

Oh, thank you. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Great communication. 

Rio Lane: 

Thank you. Awesome. So I'm going to wrap up by, I think, just asking, is there anything that you see coming down the pipeline for the bar that you're excited about or have in the works or anything like that? 

Angela Armstrong: 

Just generally or with ALPS? 

Rio Lane: 

ALPS generally, either one. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Well, like I said, I've been doing this for 20 years now and there's a great deal of benefit for having employees that have been in places for a long time, but there's also benefit of getting some new folks in. Like I said, I'm hiring for four positions and we also, on top of that, just have a brand new membership director so I'm going to have some new ideas coming in, some new energy. That's helpful to me too because when you have been doing something for 20 years there are ups and downs. 

And so, that is buoying me and I'm very pleased to say that during this visit with ALPS I've learned about the business insurance manager now offering these other things that I think is going to help our members more and give us some opportunity to let them know that there are a lot more options out there in terms of the outside of things. That excites me because when I have something new I can take back to my members, that's great. It's more touch points, it's more information, and it's more of a benefit for them, so I'm very excited about that. 

Rio Lane: 

Awesome. Well, fantastic. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Of course, I appreciate the opportunity. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, thank you. It was really great having you out here in Missoula as well. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I love it out here, I love it out here. 

Rio Lane: 

It is pretty fantastic. 

Angela Armstrong: 

I mean, I miss my ocean, like my ocean, but I love it. And my husband, who got to come with me, said if I didn't live in Maine I would live in Montana because he absolutely adores it out here, it's just so much fun. 

Rio Lane: 

Yeah, that's how I feel. If I didn't live in Canada I'd live in Missoula. 

Angela Armstrong: 

Yeah, that's great. 

Rio Lane: 

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, and thank you everybody. We will be back again with probably a longer episode of In Brief next time. But, in the meantime, take care and we will catch you on the flip side. Thank you.