The State of the Solo: Positive Trends in Solo Attorney Well-Being

In Episode 2 of our thought leadership podcast series, the Deep Think, ALPS COO and long-time attorney well-being advocate Chris Newbold sits down with ALPS Director of Strategic Partnerships Rio Lane to discuss the surprising and heartening results of our solo well-being survey and trends report.

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Rio Laine: 

Hey, everyone. I'm Rio Laine with ALPS Insurance, and welcome to the ALPS In Brief Podcast. Today, we'll be talking to ALPS COO Chris Newbold about wellness and ALPS's new Solo Attorney Wellness Trends Report. Hi, Chris. Thanks for joining me today. 

Chris Newbold: 

Hey, thanks, Rio. Thanks for having me. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. So I would like to start with maybe giving you a chance to introduce yourself to our audience, a little bit about who you are and what you do at ALPS. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I'm Chris Newbold. I'm the chief operating officer of ALPS, and one of my great passions, I think, in terms of giving back to the profession has been thinking about the notion of attorney wellness. And not just attorney wellness, but well-being in law more broadly, and that's given me the opportunity to really think about how the legal profession is structured, what people are looking for, where they may perhaps were missing the mark, and then thinking about the systemic reasons why. 

I think a lot of lawyers today are struggling in terms of their selection of a profession in which they're not necessarily finding the professional satisfaction that they may have sought when they went into law school. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And, I mean, I think, as we all know, the concept of wellness and taking care of yourself as a lawyer is relatively new. Up until recently, there was a lot of stigma around that. So it's excellent that we actually get a chance to talk about that and are starting to see good work and traction as far as that's concerned. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. And the movement, the attorney well-being movement is almost about 10 years old now in terms of a groundbreaking report coming out that stimulated a lot of thought in legal circles around where is this profession, where does it need to go, and then thinking strategically about that. 

And again, I've been really fortunate to be at the epicenter of a lot of those conversations in terms of convening groups, convening stakeholders, thinking about research and other things that we can do to kind of document where is the profession and where does it need to go so that we're attracting more people into the profession and not seeing more people exit the profession. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. And so, speaking of groundbreaking reports, we're going to be talking about ALPS's Solo Attorney Wellness Trends Report, which you have really spearheaded an effort in gathering important data and information about wellness as it relates to solo attorneys. So before we dive into that, I'd like to kind of explore your history in the wellness space. And now, you've been a proponent for well-being in law, and you've done a lot of work with the Institute for Well-Being in Law for some time now. So tell me how you got here and why this is something that really resonates with you. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Thinking back on my experiences, one of the things that we were really looking to do is to understand... I went to a small law school with 75 students, and everybody was very excited, I think, about going to law school. Yet, now that I'm out of law school for more than 20 years, the number of folks who have actually reflected and said, "I really am proud of my decision, and I've really enjoyed practicing law," a lot lower than I think that you would obviously think. And so, I think there was an expectations gap between what people thought versus the reality. 

And I think one of the things that... Again, I started to lean in on the subject, wrote part of the section for the groundbreaking report, spent three years as the co-chair of the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being, and then we parlayed that into creating the Institute for Well-Being in Law, which is something that is really kind of the preeminent think tank in the lawyer well-being space. And so, that organization continues to work to elevate the nature of discussion in legal circles about where this particular issue sits and where we need to go. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. And just for our audience at home, the kind of initial report that you're referring to was produced by the ABA. 

Chris Newbold: 

It was actually not. 

Rio Laine: 

Oh, wow. 

Chris Newbold: 

It was actually produced by a consortium of groups that were really interested in it. It was the Path to Well-Being in Law, and it provided a number of different recommendations for where the legal profession had needed to go, from the judiciary to lawyer assistance programs, to law firms, to a whole, again, consortium of groups. ABA was part of that, but not necessarily it being kind of an ABA report in and of itself. 

Rio Laine: 

Got it. Okay. Okay. Excellent. So in terms of attorney wellness, how do you see that kind of impacting not just individuals, but the broader profession? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think you said it well earlier, which is, to be a good lawyer, one has to be a healthy lawyer. And when you have healthy lawyers serving their clients, you're generally going to get better legal services, better results. The notion of what lawyers do is solve problems affecting conflicts within society. And when lawyers aren't well, when they're overstressed, when they're overburdened, when they're burnt out, when they're subject to substance abuse, you can kind of see, when they're not at their best, it's hard to deliver legal services in a way that allows the profession to function well and its ability to serve society well. 

So I think there's a real notion that to be a good lawyer, one has to be a healthy lawyer, and that notion, I think, is carrying over to why law firms and bar associations are so interested in the issue, because if we're all unhealthy, then we're not able to ultimately serve what we're here to do, which is to serve the interest of clients. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. And, I mean, I know we've kind of had this conversation off podcast earlier, but yeah, there is definitely a lot to be said for taking care of yourself so that you can do the best work possible and giving yourself that time. And I know that's something that has been typically very difficult for lawyers. There's been a lot of stigma around mental health and well-being. And so, it's nice to see that that is starting to be something that is a major focus. Well, not starting. Has been for a while, but is really coming to the forefront of people's consciousness. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. And it's a tough issue, because you have to think about the nature of the profession itself. Right? We're structured in an adversarial system with people pitting one against the other. And so, there's natural conflict. And when you have conflict, a lot of times, that brings a lot of stress and pressure, and you have a lot of Type A personalities that are very motivated and trying to be vigorous advocates on behalf of their clients. 

And so, you think about the profession, the personalities, and the task at hand, and you get the perfect storm of why well-being can sometimes be ignored, and I think a lot of us are focused on trying to bring a little bit of that focus back and ultimately create an environment in which people feel a genuine sense of professional satisfaction being a lawyer, which I think that, unfortunately, we're probably not as high on that standard as we need to be. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. Well, hopefully, we can get there, and I think this report is definitely helping to pave the way for that. So tell me a little bit about what inspired you and ALPS to conduct this research and this survey and to really dig into not just attorney wellness, but solo-specific wellness. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think that we were really thinking internally. Obviously, ALPS itself has an interest in serving the solo community. That's one of the reasons that we exist. But I think more holistically, the notion of the solo practitioner, there's a lot of them out there. Right? 49% of private practitioners are solo practitioners. And when you look at the research in the well-being space, most of it is, there is really no definitive report, like ALPS just produced, that actually gets at this particular demographic. 

Yes, there's issues on substance abuse and on stress and hardships and so forth, and kind of broader surveys that look at the totality of the profession, but with the solos being such a big part of the community, to not have any specific research on solos was a real void. ALPS wanted to step in and fill that void. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And it makes sense. It absolutely makes sense. I think solos tend to be overlooked in a lot of different respects, which is, it's nice to see that we're spending the time to give them the resources and information they need to move forward. 

Chris Newbold: 

That's right. 

Rio Laine: 

So do you want to tell me a little bit about how our survey participants were selected for that? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. The survey participants were ALPS policyholders. One of the great things about ALPS is we have a national geographic footprint. And so, our ability to know that we were able to enlist and invite a large group of solo practitioners into the survey itself ultimately ended up with approximately 300 respondents, which is certainly a scientifically solid sample size to be able to execute on a survey of this magnitude. And so, responses from around the country, primarily all being from the ALPS policyholder base. 

Rio Laine: 

Got it. So going into this survey, were there any kind of maybe trends or results that you thought were going to happen but maybe came up different or were surprising, or anything that surprised you in the data analysis? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Again, I would say that most of the research that's been produced on well-being in law has generally cast what I would call kind of a glaring reality of how hard things are. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

When you think about things like depression and suicide and substance abuse, I mean, it generally is going to naturally come out in what I would call a negative perspective of the reality of what's affecting lawyers. One of the things that was really kind of cool and, I think, enlightening about the report was the number of professionally satisfied and happy lawyers we saw kind of saying, "I really like what I do." And I think there's something to be said as you kind of think about why lawyers do what they do and what professional setting they put themselves in. 

I think there's a lot to learn from these solo results that may give a pathway for people who are looking for things like flexibility and general greater professional satisfaction. And so, I was pleasantly surprised at how much of our community ultimately came back and said, "I'm proud to be a solo, and I really enjoy what comes along with being a solo, including what it does for my personal wellness." 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so, speaking of being satisfied, I think 74% of the respondents said that they were either satisfied or very satisfied with their careers. So how do you interpret that result considering the broader legal profession stress data that's out there? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I mean, again, just think of the numbers. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Three out of four said that they're very satisfied or somewhat satisfied being a solo practitioner. My sense is that the higher that you go up the law firm size hierarchy, the lower that number ultimately gets. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And I can't definitively point to specific numbers on that. But when you think about notions of the billable hour, the expectations, how guilty folks feel for taking a vacation, how much they ignore their own personal well-being when it comes to physical activity and exercise and diet and all of those things, again, there are lots of lawyers who are thriving in all manners of the spectrum, but I would pose to you that finding three out of four in the solo space is going to be the highest that you're going to see of any grouping in private practice. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it's pretty common at larger law firms. There's a lack of flexibility in your schedule, a lack of bandwidth and time for yourself. But it's interesting, because conversely, solos in our survey cited flexibility as the top benefit to being a solo attorney. So can you tell us what are some other ways or some ways that solos are experiencing flexibility in their practice? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Again, I think a lot of it comes back to work-life balance. Right? Their ability to be able to call the shots, dictate and control their schedule. When you're in a multimember firm, particularly the larger firm that you get, there's a lot of expectations, that you're in the office, that you're in the office until your senior partner leaves the office. 

I mean, there's just kind of built-in notions, and I think what our solo community is finding is that ability to be able to chart your own journey. If you've got a kids' choir concert that you want to go to, that you can go to that without feeling guilty, because you can ultimately manage the schedule in a manner that fits what you want. You can think about the caseload that you take on. Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Right. 

Chris Newbold: 

You don't have 1,800-, 2,100-hour billing requirements. You're going to build and construct a professional journey and a professional life that suits who you are, what you need. And for a lot of people, that's not necessarily compensation-oriented. It can be around family. It can be around the types of customers that you ultimately want to take on. You have the ability to say, "I'll take that customer, but not that customer." Right? I think there's a lot of notion of autonomy and ability to set the direction of where you want your professional life to go, and I think that that's pretty exciting for folks that we found in the survey. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And do you think that's something that a lot of people who are considering going off on their own and becoming solos would even think about that is an option for them? I mean, do you think that flexibility is something that they would even be like, "Oh, yeah. Actually, that is an opportunity"? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think it's absolutely calculated, and I think the reason that we know that is, oftentimes, people who become solos have started their career in a different capacity. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

So they have reflected upon what they like and what they don't like, and ultimately are making a decision that may fit better the lifestyle that they want to ultimately live, and it's really interesting, I think. As we think about coming out of the pandemic, I think there was this notion of a great reassessment of, "Where am I at in my life? What do I want?" And a lot of, I think, lawyers... 

I have a tendency to believe that there are more lawyers coming into the small firm space, because they want more of that autonomy. They've learned, again, some of the pressures and some of the stigmas and other things that they haven't found particularly appealing. And so, more folks, I think, are naturally kind of gravitating to taking control of that and then focusing on the things that they want to prioritize in life, both personally and professionally. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, which is a pretty empowering thing to be able to have that influence over your own kind of career and, for lack of a better term, your destiny. 

Chris Newbold: 

But I should also say it's scary. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? There's a lot of risk in that value proposition, because there's... And we know that among solos, it's among the more transient of populations, and not everybody can go out and hang up a shingle and do that. But again, I think the ones that are really kind of thoughtful about, "I've been in practice for 10 years. I'm looking for this." Generally, when they make that decision, I think that they are finding that it's the right decision for them, but it does take some conviction and some courage, frankly, to kind of take a bet on yourself. But I think that those who are doing it are finding that the rewards of taking that risk are outpacing the risks of failure and otherwise. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And along the same vein, I mean, something that I thought was really interesting about this survey and that I think would also be a risk is the risk of being lonely. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. 

Rio Laine: 

I mean, particularly if you're going from a larger firm and you've got lots of coworkers and support staff, other folks around. So I would assume that a lot of solo lawyers would have said, "Yes, I experience a lot of loneliness." But interestingly enough, most respondents in the survey said that they actually don't experience much loneliness. And so, I'm really curious to know, why do you think that is? I mean- 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think a lot of it has to do with the stage of career that some of those solos may be in. Right? If you had to hang up your shingle right out of law school and you didn't have a good connection base within the legal community already, I think that would be difficult. Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Chris Newbold: 

But if you've been out 15 years, you've met people. You've litigated cases against other people. You've referred cases or had cases referred to you. And so, your network of people that you know, you know other solos. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

You can reach out to other solos, go grab a cup of coffee, and then I think they're also garnering support from their families and their spouses and other entities. It does get a little bit challenging when you don't have that person down the office that you can knock on the door and say, "I'm struggling with this particular set of facts or circumstances or this relationship." But that's where, I think, there's a real opportunity for other organized bars to step into that void, thinking about state bars, local bars, because I think there's a real opportunity for them to add value to the solo legal community because of some of those loneliness elements. 

But I think, again, the report would tell you that a lot of these folks are pretty well-grounded and have their priorities in line. And so, whether it's, again, exercising and doing the things that make you naturally healthy, I think they have existing networks and professional relationships, and then I think they're making good lifestyle choices. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. So what's some advice then that you would offer to someone who say, "I wanted to be a solo right out of law school"? I mean, obviously, they're going to need to be intentional about building that network. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Meet people. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Go to local bar meetings. Introduce yourself. Talk about who you are. Seek advice. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? I think one of the great things that you can do in life when you don't know a whole lot is ask other people who've been doing it a long time. Right? And that notion of being able to seek advice. You'd be surprised by seeking the advice of others, how much natural stuff comes back to you in terms of other referrals down the road. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

So, again, get out there, network, shake some hands. I know a lot of folks like to just hunker down in an office in this day and age. I think that's the wrong move if you're going out there and trying to build a firm from scratch. I think you got to get out there, tell people what you're doing, invite people to coffee, seek that advice, and I think you'll set yourself up for success. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. That's fantastic. And I think I would also add to that, I mean, don't be shy, and it's okay to not know the answer to something. You're not born knowing everything, and there's definitely another professional out there who has probably asked themselves the same question or handled the same issue. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. And on a representation side of things, you can actually also ask them to be a co-counsel on the case. You can share cases. If it's above what you've done or the sophistication level, you can refer to them. You can participate in watching how that all goes. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

But again, it's that notion of being a lifelong learner and understanding how you can benefit by watching others and seeking the counsel of others. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. So let's kind of shift our focus a little now to the topic of burnout. Now, this is something that is very common amongst attorneys, and 44% of our respondents said that they had experienced occupational burnout at some point, but also, though, they reported high levels of satisfaction, as we discussed earlier. So how do you reconcile those two things? I mean, you've experienced burnout, but you're also very satisfied. How do we get there? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Representing clients and knowing that you have the livelihood of others depending upon your ability to get to solutions? Stressful. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

It's just stressful work. Being a lawyer can be stressful. You think about appearing in front of a judge, conducting a deposition, drafting a complex transaction. There's a lot that can be riding. Sometimes millions of dollars can be riding on your crafting the right type of a transactional document. And so, I think the notion of burnout is, I would also kind of put it in this way, that you're going to see peaks and valleys in terms of law practice. 

Sometimes you're all in on a trial, and then you kind of crash, and then everything kind of level sets, and sometimes it's not as busy. Right? And so, again, I think, as with most professions, there are going to be fluctuations in the level of stress and anxiety that's created by the workload, and that's where I think some of the coping techniques of how are you dealing with that at those times of burnout becomes so important for you to not go further down that hole, but to kind of maintain a healthy equilibrium that allows you to be your best professional self. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that really kind of ties back to the notion of flexibility too. If you're finding that your workload is such that you cannot, it's just overwhelming, and it can't be manageable, then there's an opportunity to maybe pull back and reassess and adjust. 

Chris Newbold: 

But you got to be really self-reflective, I think, to be able to do that, because I do think one of probably the great stressors of a solo practitioner would be taking on too much than you can handle. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? Obviously from a malpractice perspective of caution that, because again, one of the great benefits is you don't have to take on all clients. Again, at some point in your career, you're going to have to take on clients because you need the revenue to be able to do that, but the notion of really being thoughtful about your caseload and what's the right amount of caseload relative to what you can handle, you got to be self-reflective of being able to judge that well. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think our survey respondents were definitely reflective, because they did cite workload as kind of the top stressor. So I think aside from self-reflection and being aware of your workload, technology is probably also a good option to help. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. 

Rio Laine: 

What are some ways that technology could maybe support with some of those administrative tasks, those things that contribute to a heightened workload? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think one of the realities of solo practitioners is sometimes what they really love doing is lawyering, and not necessarily running the business. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And the reality is, when you open up a solo practice, you are also running a business. And I think we're fortunate that we're picking up more and more tailwind of technology being an important asset that allows lawyers to do what they love and to rely on technology for the administration of the firm itself, and that's also reducing the cost of entry into the solo space. There used to be a time where you had to go hire a full-time paralegal to be part of your staff as well. 

But if you could take out a 60 to $80,000 expense reliance of technology, we haven't even talked about artificial intelligence yet and some of the kind of cautious optimism that technology and AI may be, again, allowing more people to do what they love most, which is lawyering, and doing what they least love about lawyering, and pushing that toward artificial intelligence and the leveraging of technology and case management systems that I think continue to get better and better and better, which allows... Those used to be the domains for larger firms, that they always had all the riches of technology. Now you see almost the democratization of technology coming into the small space, which opens up more opportunity for more people to come into the space. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And more opportunity for flexibility in your practice- 

Chris Newbold: 

That's right. 

Rio Laine: 

... and structuring your time. Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

That's right. And efficiency. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And collecting on your billable hours as opposed to writing those off. Again, when you think about the law practice management systems, they're getting better and better at tracking what are you billing, what are you not billing, what are the causation elements of that, and really feeling like technology is reducing the barriers inherent in people wanting to pursue these types of solo practitioner careers. 

Rio Laine: 

Mm-hmm. And speaking of folks moving towards the solo space, and you have a theory that people are kind of, in larger, larger numbers, leaving big law and shifting into solo practice. So what do you think is driving that migration? 

Chris Newbold: 

I would say two things. Again, I think the pandemic was an important kind of demarcation point for a lot of lawyers to say, "What am I doing? Am I genuinely happy or professionally satisfied in practicing law?" And for those who answered negatively, I think that they've thought about, "Maybe I should take my career in a different direction." 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

And so, I think one path to do that would be thinking about a solo practice career. The second is, again, that seeking of flexibility and work-life balance. More and more of us are thinking about considerations like family, parenting time, spouse time, vacation time, and living a well-rounded life where, historically, for a lot of lawyers, being a lawyer was being a lawyer 24/7. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And that came with a lot of consequence, I think, to relationships and so forth. And so, when people, again, think about... I think one of the real interesting elements is the generational realities of what law students are now coming out and saying and what questions they're asking in their interviews as they think about where do they want to go to work, and they're asking about, "Tell me about the wellness commitment of this firm in terms of me being a well-rounded person." That didn't used to be the case. Right? 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

And so, they are thinking about things like flexibility, and that may come. Many firms pay large dollar amounts to associates to come into that firm, but I think that's becoming more and more of a, "Is that exactly what I want? Am I chasing compensation, or am I chasing quality of life?" Most people would want both. So I think that there is a right balance, and I'm not saying it's one versus the other, but I think that there is some real thoughtfulness coming generationally and societally as to, "I only have certain amount of hours in the day. Where do I want those hours to go?" And they're tending toward maybe that being a little bit less work in favor of a more well-rounded work-life balance. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. And it's interesting, because that is definitely reflected in the survey. I mean, solos tend to be much more proactive about their physical health, about their sleep schedules, taking regular breaks, et cetera, and that's certainly not the case as far as the broader legal community goes. So other than, say, generational kind of considerations, why do you think solos tend to be much more proactive when taking care of their health? 

Chris Newbold: 

Well, again, I think they have a keener sense of probably who they are and what they're looking for. Again, they probably have experienced some things that have caused them to migrate to wanting to do something different. And when you know yourself, when you know where you are, when you're at your best, there is a tendency for you to then run to that direction. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And again, the only thing that I think has held a lot of people back is, well, a couple things. One, it's pretty scary to be able to do that. The other part of it, frankly, and this is a totally different podcast, frankly, is the realities of law student debt and how many people feel boxed into a career that they generally don't love, because they have to pay law school debts that had them come out of law school with over $100,000 of debt, and they don't feel like they can take that bet on themselves, because they're nervous about the obligations they have in terms of law school debt repayment. 

So that's creating what I would call financial anxiety. That does affect the well-being of a lawyer, because when you feel like you're, in essence, doing a law job because you have to service a debt obligation and maybe even doing something that's in an area of practice that you would have been like, "I would have never thought I would be doing this in law. This is not why I went to law school," and some of those realities, I think, are really real for folks who are engaged in law, but in spots where they don't feel like they really want to be for that reason. 

Rio Laine: 

That makes a lot of sense. Aside from solos kind of having that experience where maybe they kind of had a moment of realization where they were like, "Oh, I need to actually prioritize my well-being," something that I found really interesting and surprising was that only 22% of respondents actually sought mental health treatment despite having experienced high stress. So I'm curious, I mean, what kind of barriers still exist to that, and what are the reasons maybe that someone would be hesitant to kind of seek that support? 

Chris Newbold: 

My hunch, first of all, is that number is probably even underreported on the survey itself. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? A lot of people, I think, are still grappling with... I think one of the things that's been really awesome in society is a willingness for people to talk about their mental health challenges. When you see instances like Simone Biles in the Olympics, that normalizes the reality of people saying, "It's okay to have mental health struggles, and it's okay to seek help." But I will still say, in legal circles, that ability to raise your hand and say, "I need help," is still kind of generally frowned upon as weakness. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? And so, that notion of overcoming that and saying, just as when we are dealing with physical ailments, we go to a physical therapist. 

Rio Laine: 

Yes. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? When you're dealing with mental challenges, going and seeking the support of somebody who's trained in that particular area is really a sign of strength. And I think that those numbers over time, generationally, societally, and within the legal sector itself, I think that they will continue to increase. 

But we also have a lot of lawyers who think pretty fondly of their ability to be their own problem-solver, and they just kind of naturally kind of say, "I got this," even though sometimes... And a lot of times, there's probably a strong support group around them as well who are probably helping them through some of those issues. So I think it's probably underreported a little bit. It's happening more than you think, but there's still a stigma out there. 

Rio Laine: 

Right. Absolutely. And do you think that bar associations and legal insurers could maybe be doing more to address that stigma and to break down those barriers and to support solos in reporting and saying, when they do need help, to reach out? 

Chris Newbold: 

I do. I do. I think the ability for bar associations in specifically to be able to normalize asking for help as being okay, I think, is a real opportunity for them to kind of take the bully pulpit as a voice of the profession and be able to do that. We go to a lot of annual meetings, as you know, at ALPS, and that ability, when you have a wellness panel, to have two or three people who are there to share their stories about challenges, about resilience, about some of the things that they did when they were at their low point, that normalizes behavior for everybody else, and you'd be surprised at how many people walk up to them afterwards and say, "Thank you for sharing your story," because they are struggling as well. And again, that notion of normalizing. 

And then I think bar associations, more broadly, they have that ability to, I think, build community, particularly in the solo... When you're in a multimember firm, you have a natural community. When you're a solo, I think bar associations have a real opportunity to become a community-oriented builder of a section or a space for people to come together and share common challenges or common pursuits. 

And it doesn't even have to be law-related, frankly. I think that there's innovative ways for bar associations to be able to do that, but I think there's a real opportunity for us as legal insurers who care about solos and bar associations to, in essence, work in partnership to be able to greater provide the support infrastructure for these individuals to thrive in their practice. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. And, I mean, I think I would also question, I mean, do you think there's a connection between mental health and frequency of claims from a malpractice standpoint? If you're struggling, you think it's more likely that you'll have a claim? 

Chris Newbold: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I mean, because when you begin a spiral, when you move into a depressed mode, when the stress and anxiety is too much, you're not in your game. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

Right? When you're not on your game, you miss the statute of limitations. You don't do a conflict check. You don't do some of the things that healthy lawyers are naturally doing. And again, that's when you turn to substance abuse, self-medication, and other things. And we have seen in our own claims files, just when things start to spiral downward, the likelihood of a claim is going to shoot upward. 

Rio Laine: 

Got it. Yup. That makes sense. Makes sense. So stepping back a little bit from, say, mental health support, I mean, do you believe that the profession as a whole is doing enough to support solos? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I mean, I think I have said this publicly that I think that the well-being movement in general is focused on a lot of great things, but one of the things that needs more attention is the solo community. Now, you could argue that the results of our survey may indicate that they may not need as much help as other portions of the legal community. 

But again, I think that there are notions of a lot of people out there practicing law, perhaps on the lonely scale, workload, burnout, and stress because of the nature of the job, who have a greater, not likelihood, but propensity to find themselves in a struggling spot more quickly without infrastructure support underneath them or a safety net. 

And so, I think, again, state bars are thinking about that more and more. But again, I'm cautiously optimistic that with technology, with greater discussion, with reduced stigmatization on a variety of these types of issues, that you will start to see, hopefully, these numbers continue to kind of go in a positive direction, because I think, again, when you set the baseline for the profession, it's generally a negative story. I think this is an indication of where our profession can go if we take some of what people are looking for and embrace that from a flexibility and work-life balance perspective. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. So based on the findings and the somewhat surprising findings of the reports, what is some advice that you would offer to someone considering solo practice? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. Do your research. Talk to folks who are already engaged in it. Understand the challenges before you decide to take that jump. Again, there are fewer and fewer barriers that I think are natural impediments for people wanting to take that jump, but know what they are. Be aware of what they are. Try to mitigate those, and then go out and find more community within your network. 

And I think, again, I'm optimistic in this particular space that people will find what they're looking for and generally reflect on their legal career and say, "Moving into becoming a solo practitioner was the best thing I ever did." 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. 

Chris Newbold: 

And we hear that story time and time again. We heard it in the anecdotal comments in the survey, that people are genuinely finding their groove as opposed to leaving the profession, which is a net brain drain, and we need more lawyers to fill that. Staying in the profession allows the profession to grow. As the profession grows, you can meet more and more of society's needs from a problem-solving perspective, and we know that there are a lot of needs out there that generally go unmet. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that's fantastic advice. So just to kind of wrap it up, I'm curious to know, what are some trends that you think that we'll see over the next five years? So if we were to do this survey again in five years, do you think there's anything that would continue? Do you think there's new things that would emerge? What are your thoughts? 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. I think the circumstances are right. Societally, we're talking about mental health more. Generationally, folks are being raised in a way in which they're paying more attention to those types of things. And with technology coming, artificial intelligence coming, I think that I'm excited about the prospects for people who want to pursue a solo career, having the means, the willingness, and the courage to naturally kind of go in that direction. 

Is it going to work out for everybody? No. Right? But how much will you learn about yourself knowing that you have this great, valuable law degree that your passion is helping people, and then you can do that in a way that doesn't have you bill your time necessarily in eight-minute increments and feel like you're giving up a lot of the things that I think a lot of lawyers struggle with? 

And generally, my greatest fear is that people go to law school and ultimately find that they regret the decision that they made. I speak in front of a lot of annual bar meetings. There could be 500 people in the room. I'll ask a very simple question, "If your son or daughter came to you and said, 'Should I go to law school?' would you advise for them to go?" And generally speaking, less than half of the room will raise their hand, and that's a shame. 

Rio Laine: 

That is a shame. 

Chris Newbold: 

That indicates that there are systemic issues that people are sitting there going, "I regret the decision that I made." And I am optimistic that through this discussion, through these types of reports and the findings, that we can find a better way for people to thrive and really enjoy being a private practitioner in the legal profession. 

Rio Laine: 

Awesome. Well, I really hope that that is the case, because, I mean, we need all the lawyers we can get, really. 

Chris Newbold: 

Yeah. 

Rio Laine: 

Definitely. 

Chris Newbold: 

And one of the things, again, what happens with lawyers who are unhappy is they do generally leave the profession. The numbers are pretty staggering. The number of women lawyers who have left the profession, even though they make up more than half the law school classes. Right? Again, you talk about issues of flexibility, acceptance, inclusivity. There are some real devastating impacts on the profession's ability to serve the legal needs of the country when we haven't set up the construct for people to thrive. 

And so, I'm most excited about how do we identify those, address those, and then create an environment in which professional satisfaction is where people generally sit there and say, "I'm really proud of being a lawyer, and I don't regret being a lawyer. I'm actually proud to be in this space and the work that I can do to help other people." 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Proud and satisfied. 

Chris Newbold: 

That's right. 

Rio Laine: 

That's what we're going for. Great. Well, thanks so much for taking time to sit down with me and talk about the survey and the trends report, Chris. 

Chris Newbold: 

Thanks, Rio. 

Rio Laine: 

Really appreciate it. It's always great to hear your insights. 

Chris Newbold: 

It was fun. 

Rio Laine: 

Yeah. Thank you so much. 

Chris Newbold: 

All right. 

Rio Laine: 

So thank you so much, everybody, for joining us. We'll see you next time on the ALPS In Brief Podcast.