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Episodes
Tuesday Nov 28, 2017
Tuesday Nov 28, 2017
Transcript:
MARK:
Welcome to ALPS In Brief, the ALPS risk management podcast. We’re recording here at ALPS home office in the historic Florence building in downtown Missoula, Montana. I’m Mark Bassingthwaighte, the ALPS risk manager. I have the pleasure of sitting down today with ALPS claims attorney John Reis. John, before we get into some discussions here, can you tell our audience just briefly a little bit of your background here at ALPS?
JOHN:
I’ve been here eight years. Before that, I was in private practice in Washington state for about five years. Then before that, I was in Oregon as a prosecuting attorney.
MARK:
Ah, interesting. Very good, very good. Both of us in terms of the roles that we’re in get some common questions, which are just concerning, “I think I might’ve made a mistake. There’s a problem out here. What happens? What do I need to do? What should I do?” The idea today is just to have some discussions about the claims process. If I am an attorney and I’m concerned that a mistake has happened, can you talk me through what the basic reporting requirements are? When do I need to report this? You see where I’m going? I don’t even know.
JOHN:
In the past, and this is changing starting next year, we have in the past asked for attorneys to give us notice as soon as reasonably possible. Like all attorneys, reasonable is up for interpretation. Now we are changing it to “immediately notify us.” Basically, I always tell attorneys when they call, inevitably they’ll say, “I wasn’t sure if I should report this or not because it’s not a claim yet.” Sometimes there are claims; they’re just flat out “I missed the statute and I had to my tell my client.”
MARK:
Right, of course.
JOHN:
Sometimes, it’s a little more in the gray area. “I’ve just lost a summary judgment motion. Is that a claim?”, or, “I may have forgotten to list an expert. Is that a claim?” I always advise people that it is a claim as soon as you think it’s a claim. If you’re thinking about whether or not to report it, you should just default and automatically report it, and not wait and see if it develops into an actual malpractice claim. There’s a lot of problems if you wait. There’s always the problem down the road. Someone will accuse you of having knowledge of it and not telling ALPS.
MARK:
Right, right.
JOHN:
Nobody wants to fight over that. ALPS doesn’t want to. We’d rather you just tell us up front. It doesn’t hurt you any, so you might as well tell us as soon as you think it’s a possible claim.
MARK:
Right. A takeaway for me here is some people just assume “I don’t have a claim until I’ve been sued,” and that’s not really what this is about. It’s about awareness. If you have questions or concerns, just call us. We’ll sit down and work through it. I think just as a side note, we don’t open everything that is reported as a claim.
JOHN:
Right.
MARK:
Would you explain that just briefly?
JOHN:
Yeah. We have the choice. Sometimes someone will call in and it’s clearly not a claim or even a potential claim, and so we don’t even open anything. We just put a note on the file. Other times, maybe many years down the road, it can turn into a claim or not. We’ll open those as circumstances. A circumstance, we don’t report it when you go to another insurance company, heaven forbid. We don’t report those, so it’s just an internal notation. If it does develop into a claim, they can turn it into a claim down the road. We call them circumstances. Sometimes, you’ll see some insurance companies say, “We don’t require you to report circumstances.” Basically what they’re saying is, “We don’t require you to notify us of things that are not actual claims,” which we think is problematic. That’s why we ask you to report even potential claims, what we call circumstances.
MARK:
It seems to me, the value of that is “we’re just going to pin down coverage.”
JOHN:
Yeah.
MARK:
“We’ve taken care of our reporting requirements just in case it’s a little muddy.”
JOHN:
Right.
MARK:
Okay, okay. So, I’ve had a call with you or someone to chat with me, and the decision is, “Okay, this is something that should be reported.” Is there a formal process that I need to go through to formally report a claim?
JOHN:
Required in writing. We don’t have a form. A lot of people call and ask, “Is there a form we have to fill out?” There’s no form. Oftentimes, it’s best you just call us first and we’ll give you an idea of what we want so you’re not sitting down and writing a 10-page letter that doesn’t really help us that much. We just require written notice that just basically puts us on notice of what the issues are. Has what has been missed, what’s being alleged, who the client is, when did this happen. It could be as short as a paragraph, depending on what the error or the potential error is.
MARK:
So you’re talking about writing. Can I do this even via email?
JOHN:
Email’s fine. Fax, email, regular mail.
MARK:
Okay, very good. Now you and I both know we get these questions a lot too: “Are you guys going to raise my rates?” This kind of thing. Is there an impact? What happens? How does ALPS deal with the fact that a claim has been reported? When we think about underwriting, rates, those kinds of things going forward.
JOHN:
Yeah, there’s no impact on your future rates for just reporting claims.
MARK:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
JOHN:
In fact, I would consider it to be more of a benefit to you as far as underwriting, that you’re more cautious than the average person if you call in something that’s maybe not a claim. At least it shows that you’re thinking about the issue, which is much better than the other way, if you call us up six months after the claim has been made.
MARK:
Right.
JOHN:
If anything, I think it helps your future rates. There’s not formula that really takes it into consideration. It all goes into the black magic of underwriting. There’s not direct impact on your rates.
MARK:
So what I’m hearing is if I report a claim, you guys do your thing in claims and provide excellent customer service, and the claim goes away. I’m successfully [defended 06:45]. I’m hearing that that’s really not going to be a problem. How about I’ve blown a statute and there is a significant loss here? Let’s say there’s a $300,000 loss and I don’t know, $50,000 or something in defense costs, these kinds of things. Is that a similar outcome? What happens rate-wise there?
JOHN:
Yeah, the first thing that happens is there’s a surcharge. Anything over $30,000 is surcharged.
MARK:
Whether it’s loss or defense?
JOHN:
Right, loss or expense. I don’t know what the exact number is, but the majority of claims are probably in the surcharge level. A fair number don’t ever get to that high number. We can resolve them for next to nothing, or nothing at all. The ones that go over $30,000, the surcharge is relatively small. It’s half the basic rate, which is 1900. It’s a $950 surcharge, but that’s added into the formula mid-way through, so the final number could be higher than that.
MARK:
Are there any obligations that I have under a policy when a claim arises?
JOHN:
Well the only real obligation is you have to report it. When the new policies go into effect beginning next year, you have to immediately notify ALPS as soon as you become aware of a potential or actual claim. That’s your only requirement, is to immediately notify us. All of the claims attorneys have cellphones. We take calls 24 hours a day. Sometimes people say, “Oh, this came in over the weekend.” You can call us on the weekend.
MARK:
I get that I need to report the claim, but how about as you handle the claim, go through the process? Do I have obligations along those lines?
JOHN:
Yeah. The first thing that we’ll tell you after you report the claim, if it is a claim and it’s not just a potential claim or a circumstance, we’ll ask for a complete copy of your file. That’ll be the first, probably the biggest task you have as an insured is copying a file, depending on who the-
MARK:
– the importance of file maintenance and keeping files, but …
JOHN:
Yeah. Some people or some firms and some attorneys have a lot better record-keeping procedures than others. For some people, it’s not a big deal. They can just hit a button, copy it to a memory stick, and mail it to us. Other people, their banker box is scattered through several offices. Papers are loose, they’re difference sizes. I understand that’s a bigger task. Some files are just plain huge. They can take a whole room. If that’s the case, sometimes we can limit the request. Just give us the pleadings for now, or just give us the correspondence for now. Just enough to get us going. I guess the flip side would be if, we usually err on the side of just getting everything. It’s just like when you get a new claim or a new case as a lawyer. You want all of the information, or in discovery, you want all the information. You don’t want just the little bits that they give you. If there’s too much there, we’ll let you know and we can send it back, or just tell you not to send it to us to begin with.
MARK:
Do you prefer that digitally?
JOHN:
It’s a lot easier for us digitally. I guess the downside of digitally, sometimes people copy a file, if there’s multiples of thousands of pages, if it just goes from one to ten thousand, it’s a little hard to sort through. We manage.
MARK:
I can imagine that one.
JOHN:
Yeah. It happens a lot, so we’ve gotten pretty good at going through and sorting it out. Most files are, even poorly kept, some files are better kept than others but all files have some natural order to them. Pleadings, correspondence, notes. There’s a predictable outcome to each one.
MARK:
Going back to this sort of example of blowing a statute or something, I realized, “Oh my gosh, I really have made a mistake here and messed up here. This is going to be a malpractice claim.” Do you have any thoughts or advice that you would share in terms of, what do I do with my client? Should I just run out and fall on my sword and say, “[inaudible 11:18], I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I’ll make it right?” What is your advice? Walk through that, that issue of client information or management.
JOHN:
That’s a tricky one. Knock on wood, I’ve never had to deal with that, even when I was in private practice. I can understand that’s a difficult situation. I think most attorneys really want to tell their client, “I’ll make it right,” or they feel bad. If it’s a missed statutes of limitations, for example, they feel bad inevitably. Any error I guess an attorney feels bad. Then the next question is, “Well how do I communicate that to the client?” Well I guess we all tell the insured that you can be honest with them and tell them that the mistake was made. The only thing you can’t do is tell them that the insurance company will pay you a certain amount, or that the insurance company will fix it somehow. You have to limit it to just, “I made a mistake. Here’s what the error was.” You can’t say, “And you’ve been damaged in the amount of x dollars. Just call up John and he’ll cut you the check on Monday.” In the policy, it requires the insured to cooperate with ALPS. Part of that is to not undertake any debts or any obligations with your client.
Within that limitation though, you can pretty much tell your client anything that you feel is necessary. That you feel bad, you wish it never happened. All of that’s fine. It will come back in your deposition, so you have to be aware of that. If you say that you feel bad and you wish it never happened, you’ll be asked about that. Keep that in mind. I think the best advice is just to tell them succinctly as possible, “I made an error. Your case is no longer viable. I’ve reported this to my insurance carrier. Here’s the claim number. Please call him or her as soon as you can.” That’s good enough.
MARK:
Well, my takeaway here is not to be afraid. If I am concerned that I’ve made a misstep, just to call and talk to the people that are experienced in handling these kinds of things and you will work with any of the attorneys calling in to try to understand, “Is this reportable or not?”, understand, explain how the process works. The other takeaway that I have here is, “Hey, if I am afraid I’ve made a mistake, I want to call ALPS first and have some discussions about how to handle this because I can get into some trouble in terms of just coverage issues and these kinds of things. I want to be informed.” For those of you listening, any time a claim comes up, I would just, “Hey, call John and he’ll take you through the process.
Well John, thank you very much for spending a little time. Thanks to all of you for listening to our show. If any of you happen to have any questions about the issues we’ve discussed today, please don’t hesitate to contact me at mbass@alpsnet.com. We’d love your feedback on the podcast, including other issues you’d like to hear us cover. Thanks again. It’s been a pleasure.
Friday Nov 03, 2017
Friday Nov 03, 2017
Mark sits down with Julie Patterson, a longtime ALPS Business Development Representative, bringing with her two decades of experience helping law firms across the country understand the importance of selecting the right coverage to protect their law firms. In this episode Mark and Julie discuss legal malpractice insurance costs in terms of what a firm should actually be getting for their premium dollar.
ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte.
Transcript:
MARK:
Welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast. I’m Mark Bassingthwaighte, ALPS risk manager, and I’m sitting down today at the ALPS offices in Missoula, Montana, with JULIE. Julie has been with ALPS on the business development team for 20 years. She brings with her a wealth of knowledge on legal malpractice insurance, and today we are going to talk about the cost of legal malpractice insurance, focusing on what really should you be getting for your premium dollar. Julie, welcome.
JULIE:
Thank you, Mark. I appreciate that nice intro.
MARK:
Well, you’re very welcome. You’re very welcome. I think it’s a fair question. Malpractice insurance is … It’s an investment. It’s not an insignificant line item of business year to year. When I think about I’m cutting this check each year and buying my ALPS policy, really what am I getting, what should I be getting when I think about malpractice insurance?
JULIE:
Good question. It’s very important for your firm to have your malpractice insurance carrier picked out and go through their features with a reputable person at the company to help you out with everything. You want to look for somebody who is going to partner with you, who’s going to understand what you do in the course of your day-to-day business and be able to provide support where you need it, but also peace of mind for exactly what you’re buying for your firm.
MARK:
I think that’s a great point in the sense … Heaven forbid, if I have some significant claim come up at some time, I mean, I really am counting on the carrier to have my back. What I’m hearing is the relationship here I really should look into.
JULIE:
You should.
MARK:
That this is a partner.
JULIE:
It is, and that’s very important because you want to have access to the people when you need to talk to them, or if you have a claim in your firm, you need to be able to talk to that person who can help you, ease your mind, and get the ball rolling for you.
MARK:
Are there other things that come to mind?
JULIE:
Absolutely. You want to look at the policy features. You want to see what they offer in limits and deductible. You want to access your clientele and your risk and what you can sleep with at night for your limits and deductible. That’s an important factor as well.
MARK:
In policy features, there’s one thing I think that’s important and I’m not sure everyone fully appreciates at times. You can sit down and compare policies at times and everything seems to be exactly the same except one is significantly cheaper. What we’re really getting at is there’s some policies out there that are what we refer to as cannibalizing policies. I think that might be an important distinction. Can you share what I’m talking about, what this issue is?
JULIE:
Yes. That’s very important. A lot of times when you see a quote come in to your firm for a cheaper price, that means that they’re trying to buy the business in your area. They may not know what the jurisdiction brings in claims experience. They may be just trying feelers out there to see what kind of business they can bring in the door, but typically if it’s a cheaper policy, it’s going to be cannibalizing. You are not going to have limits on the outside of your per claim limit, and you will probably have a hammer clause, meaning if a claim were to arise and you don’t agree to settle it with the carrier who you’ve been insured with, they are going to walk away, and you’re going to be left holding the bag.
MARK:
Okay. I want to make sure that we’re clear. When we talk about limits being inside or outside, if I have my defense costs inside limits so that every dollar that gets spent on defense is going to erode what’s available for the loss payment.
JULIE:
You’re exactly correct. It’s going to erode that per claim limit, and you want to look for defense costs on the outside of your per claim limit with the carriers that you are shopping with.
MARK:
That seems to me to be a pretty important thing.
JULIE:
That’s very important.
MARK:
Just to understand, so two policies that are on their face may provide a million dollars in coverage, but if the cheaper policy has defense cost inside limits, I’m really not getting a million dollar policy, so that’s why it’s cheaper.
JULIE:
That’s correct.
MARK:
Okay. That makes sense. That makes sense. Continue on. We’ve talked about the relationship, we’ve talked a bit about some of the features and looking at some of the pricing issues. Are there other things that come to mind yet?
JULIE:
Well, the add-on to the pricing, responsible pricing. You want to look for a carrier that’s had some experience in that jurisdiction, that’s been there a while. They know the climate, they know the jurisdiction, and they are going to rate accordingly and responsibly. If you see a carrier come in real low, they’re just trying to buy your business, and they might do a bait and switch the following year. Be careful when you’re shopping and looking at pricing.
MARK:
Again, it seems to me, is it worth even asking how long you have been in a market if I’m shopping and-
JULIE:
Absolutely. The other important factor is if that carrier is endorsed by the state bar. Many state bars around the United States will endorse a carrier, meaning they’re giving back to that community, that legal profession in that community, and that’s an important factor as well. It comes with a-
MARK:
Okay. All right, so what I’m hearing on sort of the takeaway with this piece is just looking at commitment to the local market, that I want to work with an insurer that is committed long term. That makes a lot of sense. Okay.
JULIE:
Customer service plays into it as well. You want somebody who’s going to return your calls, who’s going to answer your questions, respond to your email in a timely fashion, and hopefully under 24 hours. You shouldn’t have to chase them down. They should be willing to talk to you, whatever it is that comes about and you need help with.
MARK:
Okay. Excellent. Excellent. Boy, I wish I had known that years ago, let me tell you, before I got into working with an insurance company. Are there any final thoughts or other things you’d like to share, Julie?
JULIE:
Yeah. Probably just a quick input on claims handling. Double check on how they handle the claims, how you report a claim, are you going to be assigned a claims attorney to work with or a claims adjuster, very important. You really want somebody who is a claims attorney, who is an attorney who can talk on your level, and find out who their defense panel is in your jurisdiction, and if you have input there. That’s important as well. You really want input instead of them picking an attorney that maybe is somebody you don’t respect in your jurisdiction.
MARK:
Right, right. This has been great stuff. The big takeaway for me is this isn’t just like going to a store and picking out some item for home or something. What you’re really saying is we’re entering into a partnership here and heaven forbid again, something come up in terms of a blown statute or some other type of significant claim. What you’re really telling me is that the relationship that I’ve created with the carrier is really going to be key in terms of how we get through all this in the end.
JULIE:
It’s very key.
MARK:
Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, thank you very much for joining us today.
JULIE:
You’re welcome. Yeah, thank you.
MARK:
Thanks to all of you for listening to the show. If any of you have any questions about the issues Julie and I have discussed, please don’t hesitate to contact me here at ALPS at mbass@alpsnet.com. We’d love your feedback on the podcast including hearing about any other issues or topics you’d like to hear us cover. That’s it. Thanks again, Julie. Thanks to all of you.
JULIE:
Thank you.
Friday Nov 03, 2017
Friday Nov 03, 2017
While in Missoula, Libby Benet, U.S. Lead for Beazley Product Solutions took the time to sit down with Mark to talk about the latest trends in cybercrime, including the rise of industrialized ransomware, and how prevention paired with protection can help law firms best avoid and manage a cyber breach. Beazley has handled 8 of the largest breaches to date. In 2012 Beazley Breach Response Services partnered with ALPS to create the ALPS Cyber Response policy, which is the only one of its kind designed specifically for law firms. A more feature-rich version of the ALPS Cyber Response policy will be coming out in January of 2018.
Transcript:
MARK: Welcome to the first episode of ALPS In Brief, the ALPS’ risk management podcast. We’re recording here at ALPS’ home office in the historic Florence Building in downtown Missoula, Montana. I’m Mark Bassingthwaighte, the ALPS risk manager, and I have the pleasure of sitting down today with Libby Benet, U.S. Lead for Beazley Product Solutions. Libby, welcome. It’s just a wonderful opportunity to have you join us today. We’ve been having some conversations earlier, doing some training here at the building, and I was fascinated and interested in your summary. You were really talking about, you know, why small firms, small law firms, should be looking at a cyber policy, and I would just ask you to share it with our listeners.
LIBBY: Yeah, sure. Thank you so much for having me here. I’m really glad that I have a chance to talk to you today. So we look at the cyber product really as a way for policyholders to deal with real-life risks that they’ve got in their businesses today that they may not be aware of and are addressing. And so small businesses — It’s not a question of whether they’ve been penetrated —
MARK: Right, right.
LIBBY: — or not; it’s when they will be penetrated.
MARK: Yeah, yeah.
LIBBY: And then what is the response going to be. At Beazley what we talk about is having a data breach is not a crisis, but mishandling that data breach is. And so having an insurer that’s got a policy and services associated with it to help that law firm when an event happens is critical to dealing with a crisis situation.
MARK: Okay. Can we go further with that?
LIBBY: Sure.
MARK: If I would sit down and say, okay, I understand that it’s one of these “it’s not if, but when” kind of things —
LIBBY: Yeah.
MARK: — but I also — In my experience, a lot of small firms in particular tend to come with this attitude of I’m not big enough to be hit. I’m — I’m not on anybody’s radar. It’s not going to cost that much money, these kinds of things. Can you — Could you give me some business reasons, why — why would — You’re trying to convince me.
LIBBY: Right.
MARK: Why — why do I really need this product in terms —
LIBBY: So let’s —
MARK: What are the benefits —
LIBBY: Yeah.
MARK: — that come from this?
LIBBY: So this is a great question, Mark. I think one of the things we’re seeing at Beazley is that the area of ransomware has —
MARK: Okay.
LIBBY: — absolutely exploded.
MARK: Yes.
LIBBY: So this is a great example of how the exposures are changing and evolving in the marketplace. We are now seeing somewhere between 25 and 30 percent of the claims that we handle at the insurance company level are coming from ransomware attacks.
MARK: Yeah.
LIBBY: People are able to go out on the dark web, they’re able to buy the software that is malware, and they’re able to do an industrialized-sized explosion out into the marketplace through phishing emails.
MARK: Right.
LIBBY: And they’re capturing law firms. They’re capturing retail establishments. I mean, they’re capturing small businesses whose employees inadvertently click on a malicious link and launch the ransomware. If your system gets hit with a ransomware attack, you can no longer access your files until you’ve paid the ransom, and if the criminal gives you the key back, you can unencrypt your system. That’s something that we didn’t see before, really, you know, the last 24 months, I would say.
MARK: Right.
LIBBY: So that’s an example —
MARK: Okay.
LIBBY: — of, you know, you can be a well-managed firm, but still have an exposure to a malicious event.
MARK: And that’s a great example. I mean, 2016 has been labeled as the year of ransomware and, yeah, I really see it as the year — or the rise of ransomware —
LIBBY: Right.
MARK: — that’s really come into the mainstream.
LIBBY: Right.
MARK: And this industrialization piece is absolutely spot-on. When I think about, okay, I know what my malpractice policy does, I have this general insurance policy and things, do I still have some gaps? What would this policy —
LIBBY: Yeah.
MARK: Just in general —
LIBBY: Yes.
MARK: — what’s it going to do for me?
LIBBY: So two things, two sides of the coin: Do you have a gap in your other commercial insurance coverages, and the answer is yes.
MARK: Okay.
LIBBY: So the industry realized that they were having these events and around 2014 started to add exclusions to the business owners’ policy and the CGL policy. Cyber is not — cyber events are not considered professional services —
MARK: Right.
LIBBY: — so they weren’t considered under the professional policy.
MARK: Makes sense.
LIBBY: So a gap occurred. So ALPS is offering an endorsement which offers information security and privacy, website media liability, PCI fines and penalties, business interruption, cyber extortion, data protection and some crime coverages, fraudulent instructions and computer crime.
MARK: Right.
LIBBY: So ALPS is trying to provide coverages for a series of events that happens when a breach occurs or a ransomware event occurs and the various losses that derive from that event.
MARK: Okay. Wow. You know, I mean, when you really sit down and just start to think about it, you don’t fully appreciate all the fallout of an attack, and that’s spot-on. I love it. In my own experience in terms of working with law firms that have had breaches over the years, one of the biggest concerns in terms of the financial loss seems to be just the funds. There’s wire fraud. We’ve seen a lot of that. And these dollar figures can go sky high in a heartbeat. It’s my understanding that that is a loss that is difficult to insure. Is that correct? I mean, in terms of a small business being able to go out.
LIBBY: Yes. So the industry typically excludes the loss of money or securities out of the typical general liability BOP world. And also in the — certainly in the malpractice side, loss of funds isn’t covered. It’s an area that the industry is actually beating each other around the head about, to be honest with you, to find out who’s going to cover the loss —
MARK: Yeah.
LIBBY: — if a loss occurs. And some — unfortunately, some law firms have found themselves without any coverage.
MARK: Right. Yes.
LIBBY: Firms with large exposure to crime ought to be seeking a crime policy out in the marketplace, and we just had a conversation with someone who was going through that process —
MARK: Yes.
LIBBY: — and found that there were some markets that would do it up to $250,000 unlimited and one market that would do a million dollars. That’s an individually underwritten approach.
MARK: Okay.
LIBBY: The ALPS’ endorsement that’s coming out offers a lower limit of crime protection that’s there, and for a small firm, that may be adequate. If in their evaluation, however, they think they have a much wider exposure, they should buy a crime policy in addition to this. (6:48-6:52)
MARK: Okay. And I agree with you. I mean, I understand —
LIBBY: Yeah.
MARK: — I’d rather have some coverage than no coverage.
LIBBY: Right.
MARK: And when I’ve looked at a lot of cyber policies, you’re right, you know, these generally don’t cover any of the financial loss, and the fact that we have a little here is a great perk with the policy. But what I’m taking away is this –the ability to affordably insure for these kinds of risks for small businesses is a challenge —
LIBBY: That’s true.
MARK: — to say the least, which then takes me to the side, okay, so what do we do about that? And it seems to me that the reality is getting proactive. I know that Beazley has some resources available. Maybe you can share a quick – in terms of the website and what kinds of things I might find out there.
LIBBY: Sure. So as part of your — as a Beazley insured that has this coverage, we have an online website that provides the risk management — some of the risk management tools that you can put in place to manage the entirety of your cyber exposure including —
MARK: Right.
LIBBY: — loss of funds. I also know in our conversation you do a lot of risk management as well.
MARK: Yes.
LIBBY: I know you have some thoughts about this. How do you think is best to manage?
MARK: Well, honestly, the business standard in terms of what I’m seeing from even Microsoft down to a Ma and Pa shop, if you’re really going to get in front of cyber crime, cyber prevention is really what it’s all about. You know, I have been trying to advocate for years that we need ongoing regular training and just sit down with everyone in the office, from the most senior partner to the —
LIBBY: Uh-huh.
MARK: — you know, the part-time high school kid doing a little scanning in the summer, you know, that kind of thing because any one of these people can be the one that is tricked into doing something —
LIBBY: Right.
MARK: — you know, and I want to get ahead of it. So, to me, I want to use products like the insurance policy that Beazley offers, but I also want to look at the risk management tools and educational things and just sit down and do everything that I can to make sure that we don’t become the victim. Because at the end of the day, I mean, let’s be honest, IT can’t protect us from ourselves.
LIBBY: Right.
MARK: It’s all about securing the human. So I think that’s it. I thank you for listening. If you have any questions about the issue discussed today, please don’t hesitate to contact me at mbass@alpsnet.com. We’d love your feedback on the podcast, including any other issues you’d like to hear us cover.