The ALPS In Brief Podcast

ALPS In Brief - Episode 83: Women Lawyers on Guard: Dismantling Sexual Harassment in the Legal Profession

Despite best intentions, sexual harassment is still a very prevalent issue that impacts the legal profession on a wide, wide basis to this day. In this episode, Rio sits down with the founders of Women Lawyers on Guard to discuss their work to confront sexual harassment, and other issues impacting women in law and what you (yes! You!) can do about it.

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Rio Peterson: 

Hello, everybody, and welcome to In Brief episode 83, Women Lawyers on Guard. My name is Rio Peterson. I am the Bar Partnership Strategist at ALPS, and today, I'm going to be chatting with two fantastically inspiring women, Cory Amron and Corrine Parver. Cory, Corrine, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have you. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thanks so much. 

Cory Amron: 

Thank you, Rio. 

Rio Peterson: 

Thank you. 

Cory Amron: 

I'm really pleased to be here. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wonderful. So, before we dive in, I know we've got a really interesting conversation ahead of us today, which I've been very looking forward to for the past few weeks, since we had our first chat. But before we started, I wanted to find out if you could tell us a little bit about you, who you are, where you live, where you came from. Corey, why don't we start with you? 

Cory Amron: 

Okay, great. Alphabetical order. I live in Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, D.C. I've been here for yeah, 30 some-odd years. I'm now retired, but I worked primarily for a number of law firms that, some of which are no longer around, but most recently retired from the firm of Vorys, Sater, Seymour and Pease, which started as a Midwest-based firm, here in D.C. 

I have been working over my 40-year legal career not only day-to-day clients, et cetera, but also on women's and diversity issues. So, for instance, I was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession, the second chair. In 1991, I took over right over right as Anita Hill was testifying in the Senate at Clarence Thomas' confirmation hearing. So, that was kind of a trial by fire. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Cory Amron: 

So, I've also had a lot of experience working on sexual harassment and things like that, and then, fast-forward, co-founded Women Lawyers on Guard in 2017. 

Rio Peterson: 

Great. All right, fantastic. Corrine, how about you? 

Corrine Parver: 

I'm also a retired lawyer. First career was as a physical therapist for 15 years before going to law school. So, I went to law school primarily because I wanted to work in the health law area. My practice, when I was a partner in a law firm, was geared towards policy, regulations, as opposed to litigation. 

After I retired from practicing law, I was a law professor for close to 10 years, where I created the Health Law and Policy program at American University Washington College of Law and enjoyed teaching the young students and remained involved with the law school over the past few years, even though I am retired from actually teaching, and joined forces with Cory and our gang of warriors in 2017 to now be the president of Women Lawyers on Guard Action Network. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. So, you both retired to then go on to do more incredible things in your post-retired life. Fantastic. Now, you mentioned you both founded and you run Women Lawyers on Guard. We know that's a nonprofit organization that's been doing some really especially important work around understanding and addressing sexual harassment in the legal profession, and that's what obviously what we're here to talk about today. So, before we really dig into the deeper part of this conversation, I'd love for the audience to learn a bit more about what Women Lawyers on Guard does. What is your mission? Why don't you tell us a little bit about how everything got started? 

Cory Amron: 

Okay, so in the end of 2016, I was a member of a national network of women lawyers, and we decided that we really needed to do something, both to protect women's rights that we had worked so hard over 40 plus years, and also expand women's rights into the next couple of years. So, we organized Women Lawyers on Guard that first year, in 2017, to bring together our volunteers, because as I said, we have a network around the country, with the legal needs of other nonprofits. 

Corrine and I went around and met with a lot of nonprofits and asked them what their legal needs were, because we weren't quite sure what exactly we wanted to do. We wanted to do something. And frankly, our volunteers didn't know exactly what they wanted to do, either. So, this was sort of marriages made in heaven, and we would match our volunteers with those legal needs. 

After about a year or so of doing that, we decided we really needed to focus our areas, and that's when we did some very heavy-duty strategic planning and came up with three areas that we were going to focus on. So, sexual harassment obviously was key, because right at that time, #metoo exploded, but we decided also that we were not going to just do one area, but we also picked women's reproductive rights, which actually at that time was not exploding but is of course now, and gender and workplace equity. Those are the three. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. I'm curious to know, how was it that sexual harassment and this area was something you both identified as an area that you wanted to be involved in? Is this something that's impacted you directly in your life? I mean, you both had pretty incredible, long careers, so I suspect that at some point, you may have encountered this. 

Corrine Parver: 

Well, as Cory said, the #metoo explosion made it even more impressed upon us that we needed to speak up for this particular area, and there were other groups that were focusing on, for example, Hollywood and the restaurant industry, and the marketing and public relations areas. We thought we needed to focus on the legal profession, and that's because we had heard stories for years, the years that we practiced, that this was a concern with people. 

We wanted to be able to represent their interests and try to do something about it, and that's how we got really involved in focusing on the legal profession, because no other group was doing that on a national basis. There were some people statewide doing certain surveys and the like, but not on a national basis. And because we were, and are, a national organization, that's what we decided to focus on. 

Cory Amron: 

And just if I could add too, that when we started to talk to lots of people in the profession when #metoo exploded, and came to determine really that there were those who didn't see it happening in the legal profession, either because well, because it wasn't happening to them, and so they just thought, "Well, we have all of these policies, and we have these trainings, and that's ... we're good to go." 

Then, we talked to other people, and not just young people, who said, "Oh my God, let me tell you what happened yesterday to me," or to my colleague, or to somebody I was in the room with, et cetera. It was like, "Ugh." We'll get into our survey, but that's kind of what led us to do that. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. Right. Absolutely. So, really realizing that despite best intentions, this is still a very prevalent issue that impacts the legal profession on a wide, wide basis. So, let's talk quickly a little bit about DWL's mission. I know you mentioned that you focus on three areas, and what is the overarching mission of your organization? 

Cory Amron: 

Well, we have a very broad mission because again, as I mentioned, we didn't quite know what we were going to do at the beginning. So, our mission is that we are a national network harnessing the power of the law to ... well, to go after and make sure that people have equality, they have justice, and there's equal opportunity for all. So, it's a very broad mission. We have a 501(c)(3), which is the one behind me, and we have a 501(c)(4) which is what's behind Corrine, so that we can do different things in these spaces with the different organizations. 

For instance, obviously we do a lot of programming around these topics, and of course with the pandemic, we've been able to do that around the country. We not only sign onto amicus briefs, but we've also written amicus briefs, particularly one in the Dobbs case, on behalf of women lawyer organizations, which of course was ignored. We do studies, obviously we'll talk about them, and initiatives around these various topics. 

And of course, we have this network that we activate when needs be, and we also advocate. As I said, we have different arms that we can do different types of things, but we've done lobbying and with letters, advocating to policymakers. We sign petitions, and we get out there and march. 

Corrine Parver: 

I've had some really interesting experiences doing that. One of the other things that we do also is work in coalition with other groups there from out of the University of Texas, The Council on Women and the Law and the National Conference of Women Bar Associations, and the National Association of Women Lawyers. So, we have done programs with all of those groups and attended various coalition meetings to learn about what these groups are doing. The American Bar association also, as Cory had mentioned earlier, has a commission on women in the profession, and we are looking to collaborate with them, as well. 

Rio Peterson: 

All right. Fantastic. I know we're kind of deviating just a little bit, but we will definitely be talking about the survey, but I'm curious to know, so obviously, you're doing a lot. You're doing a lot of work, and so is the organization run primarily by volunteers? I'm guessing you have a pretty incredible team. 

Corrine Parver: 

Yes, we are. We are 100% volunteer-driven, and it's pretty much been the same board of directors that have been together since its inception. We've had some people go into certain government roles that prohibited them from continuing to be on our board, but they all, they continue to support us. We have a Facebook presence. We have a LinkedIn presence, and Instagram, trying to make ourselves known via social media. So, through that, we get our messages out to the various communities. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. Oh, fantastic. Fantastic. It's really wonderful that you're devoting your time to this undertaking. It's fantastic. 

Cory Amron: 

And we're always looking for more to grow our network. 

Rio Peterson: 

Fantastic. I think at the end of the chat, we'll have a chance to ... We'll plug and let everyone know where to get ahold of you and how they can participate. 

Cory Amron: 

That's great. That's super. 

Rio Peterson: 

All right, so now, we've kind of alluded to a survey a few different times, so I would love to dive into that, because it's really, really fascinating. So, in 2020, I know you published a report titled Still Broken, and that shared the results of the national survey that was conducted by Women Lawyers on Guard, and the intention of the survey was to better understand not so much the prevalence of sexual harassment but rather the experience of those affected by it, in addition to uncovering the impact that this has on the legal profession. So, I would really love to know if you could share with us some of the methodology behind the survey itself, and expand on how the survey is different from typical surveys about sexual harassment. 

Corrine Parver: 

What we were very fortunate in being able to collaborate with a well-known researcher who is a woman by the name of Dr. Arin Reeves, who is also a lawyer in addition to having her PhD in certain aspects of statistical analyses. We put together a group that went through the actual drafting of the survey questions, and it took us a good couple of months to be able to go back and forth to hone in on all the areas that we wanted to investigate. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Corrine Parver: 

Cory? 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, so what else? My job actually was sending this out and trying to get people to respond it. So, it was not a survey where it was a closed box of respondents. It was a survey where we were just trying to get as many people as we could to respond to it, both women and men. Lo and behold, we did get a representative sample, even though we hadn't put that sample together, but we analyzed it afterwards and compared it to the demographics that the ABA keeps about lawyers, and was very representative of the box of the profession and where people were geographically, and ages and things like that. So, it was, we felt, a pretty good picture of what was going on. 

We were also, because we asked people to tell us the sort of 10-year tranche when something that they were talking about in the survey occurred, we were able to measure change over time, and I think that's one of the things about the survey that's been extremely valuable, to be able to say, "This was like this, and now it's like this." 

Corrine Parver: 

We also gave the respondents the opportunity to comment throughout the survey questions. So, when it came time to look at an issue of great import, we allowed comments. 

When we collated all the information, we gathered literally hundreds of different comments from our respondents, and included some of the quotes from their comments in an appendix in the Still Broken report. So, I would encourage everyone who listens to this podcast to actually go online to our website and read the report, and also the appendices, so that they can see the lasting effect of some of the experiences that they went through. 

Rio Peterson: 

Absolutely, and that's something that really stood out to me when I was reading the report. I think it's very often that we overlook the context surrounding these types of experiences, and I found that that really just added so much depth to understanding the issue and just understanding the experiences of those who have been impacted by sexual harassment in their workplace and just in all different ways. It was really unique, I think, the way that you've approached this. Yeah. Can you share with us some of the results of the study? 

Cory Amron: 

Yes, absolutely. Well, first, I guess I wanted to say some of the positive things that we saw. There were some. For instance, we asked about the culture of harassment within the person's employment setting, and as I mentioned, these are settings all across the board, everything from the judiciary to academia, to law firms and associations, the government, et cetera. 

What we found was that, at the very least ... We gave them choices. They could say it was often part of the culture. In other words, it was just ubiquitous. Or they could say it was part of the culture, so it was within certain departments, or groups, or whatever. Or they could say it was rare, rarely manifested itself. 

So, 30 years ago, we found that the respondents said 51% of these incidents were often, often part of the culture, 38% just various departments, and only 10% was it rare. Now, we've found, and these will be easier to see when the people read the report, 25% was often. So, it went from 51% to 25% was often. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. 

Cory Amron: 

So, that actually shows that there is change, and that the change is for the better. However, they also said that 48% part of the culture. So, if you add often and part together, you find what you see is that 30 years ago, 89% of these cultures had either often or in some places in the employment setting, whereas now, it's 73%, right? 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

So, it's better, but it's obviously not right. So, that's one of the more positive aspects. Another positive aspect we saw was that, we asked about, in one place, who was doing the harassing. We found that a lot less now from professors in law school and a lot less now from judges in court. However, partners- 

Corrine Parver: 

And there's always a however. 

Rio Peterson: 

There's always a however, yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

However, partners and supervisors still kind of similar statistics from 30 years ago, and now, there's maybe somewhat more from clients. 

Corrine Parver: 

Another positive finding was that, in comparison over the 30-year span that we asked about, is that there were fewer sexual assaults and rapes nowadays than occurred in the past, although I think what we saw an increase in was a lot of verbal comments, name-calling such as the like. So, there was a plus on one side, but then again, the bubble expanded in another area where there is more name-calling and appearance criticisms, et cetera. 

Cory Amron: 

So, some of the negative results that we found were, as we mentioned, it's still insidious, and we called it insidious and alarming, the incidents. We'll talk about some of these things later, but the barriers to reporting were absolutely identical today as they were 30 years ago, things like, they didn't think they would be believed, or they thought they'd be retaliated against, nothing was going to happen, et cetera. 

The price to the people who were harassed, and by the way, most of these people are women, not all of them, but most of them, was just devastating, and long-lasting. I mean, there was one quote where, "Even though this happened once while I was a law student over 30 years ago, it still haunts me." 

So, the consequences to the people who are harassed, long-lasting anxiety in the workplace, fear of retaliation, loss of productivity, loss of confidence, and in the entire workplace, you find loss of productivity, anxiety, et cetera, things like that. So, the consequences to the workplace, even if it's not just the people who are harassed, is consequential, and in fact so consequential that we made a determination, not statistically, but that the consequences to the people who were harassed was greater than the people who were doing the harassing. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Right, and unfortunately, that sounds ... Yeah. That sounds not surprising. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, unfortunately. 

Corrine Parver: 

Another major finding that was a little bit surprising to us was that people at every level of the profession have experienced harassment of one form or another. Professors, judges have responded to us that in their capacity at really the highest levels of the profession still have experienced that kind of harassment. 

Cory Amron: 

Partners, general counsel. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. I think that was something that really disappointed and surprised me deeply. You would think that, once you reach a certain level in your career, you maybe garner enough respect that that type of behavior is curbed in others, but that doesn't seem to be the case, and I definitely found that to be very surprising and discouraging, in a lot of ways. I mean, you work really, really hard to get to where you are, and you still have to [inaudible 00:25:49] that same sort of nonsense, it's very disappointing. Yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah. I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that, at least the way that we look at this, that sexual harassment is not a sexual thing. It's a control thing. And so people find ways to control other people, whether those people are partners or associates, or supervisors, or general counsel, whatever. This is a tool that some people use to control others. So yes, it's somewhat surprising, but maybe not so if you look at it through that lens. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Absolutely. That's an excellent, excellent way to think about it. Was there any other findings that you both found surprising? 

Corrine Parver: 

I think the numbers that we were able to calculate on the issue of reporting sexual harassment, that was a bit surprising, that the vast majority of people don't report. Either they don't have the right circumstances in their place of employment for them to report an incident. For example, if there is someone working in a small law firm, and there is on HR department, or even if there is, it could be the spouse of one of the senior partners, or the named partner of the small firm. How do you go about doing the reporting in that circumstance? So, the numbers were really quite staggering, as far as many people not reporting incidents. 

Cory Amron: 

It was something like 86% currently are not reported. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. 

Cory Amron: 

Mm-hmm. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wow. That's a very large number. So, I know that the goal of this study is not only to understand these experiences, but also to take these findings and use them to impact some kind of positive change in the legal professional. So, I'm curious to know, thinking about all these points that we've just touched on, what were some of the recommendations that came about as a result of the survey? 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, go ahead. 

Corrine Parver: 

No, go ahead. 

Cory Amron: 

No, you. No, you. 

Corrine Parver: 

There's so much that we want to say, we want to make sure we get it all in. 

Cory Amron: 

Right, right, right. Well, I just want to mention three, three recommendations. There were a lot of recommendations, and Corrine, please pick up after I finish. The three that I want to mention are the reporting, because of just the terrible statistics, something we call transparency, and also individual accountability. 

So, the reporting, you can have the greatest policies, and training, and all that in the world, but if people don't feel comfortable reporting, and of course all the barriers that we just mentioned, then you're not going to hear about it. You're not going to be able to fix it. So, you need not only better reporting mechanisms, you need multiple reporting mechanisms, and you need support for reporting. That somewhat goes to the culture, so that has to come from the top down. I've heard male general counsels say that if you put better reporting mechanisms into place and your reporting goes up, you're actually doing a good job, because now, you're finding out about things that were happening that you did not know about before because there were too many barriers. So, reporting. 

The second thing is transparency, and what that means is what the workplace knows. Oftentimes, in the statistics that we found from the survey, we found that even in the 14% of incidences that were reported, 50% of those, there was absolutely no consequence, and another 20%, the person who'd been harassed was never told what the consequences were. 

So, knowing what happens and what steps the employer took is key, I think, in first of all creating a culture of A, reporting, and B, a lot less sexual harassment, but it also, everybody knows that it happened. I mean, if the employer thinks that this is under wraps and, "I'm doing my privacy thing by not telling anybody what we did," which employers do say, "Oh, privacy, and we can't tell anybody," everybody knows what has happened, and everybody needs to know that something was done about it. And it doesn't always have to be the person was fired, okay? 

Which gets to individual accountability. In the most egregious cases, the person actually is let go, and if it's a law firm, sometimes what happens is they just go across the street with their clients, leaving the firm to clean up the mess, because now, there is not only somebody who's been harassed, but now, you have ... and particularly because a lot of these people are rainmakers, so you're leaving behind a lot of people who now have no work to do. And in the worst possible case, people are suing employer, and the employer now has to come up with funds to settle these lawsuits. Sometimes, the individual goes off Scott free. 

So, there needs to be individual accountability. We've been looking and talking to a lot of people about the ethics requirements and disciplinary requirements, and that's okay, as far as it goes, but there has to be a lot more thought given to how to make sure that the individual is accountable for what they've done. 

Corrine Parver: 

So, the consequences really aren't just for the individual who was harassed, but to the location of the employment, the place of employment, whether it's even government, or a small firm, or a large firm. The business imperative exists for companies to act properly in informing the employees or partners, but the people in the workplace what has occurred, because the gossip will permeate the institution. People will know, as Cory mentioned, and so the consequences financially and otherwise are of concern. 

Cory Amron: 

But there are also a lot of positive things that employers can do to get ahead of the situation before it gets to that point. So, positive reinforcement for mentoring and for let's say 360 reviews to try to figure out what's going on, to putting in place conversations about what is appropriate, what is not appropriate in this particular organization. I know of general counsels who go, and magic partners, who go around to all of their offices to lead by example and talk about what the culture of the place is. So, positive reinforcement, not just always negative consequences. 

Corrine Parver: 

Two important recommendations that really laid the foundation for the next initiative that came out through the publication of the report and the survey findings, is that we need to come up with a creative way in order to make a shift in the landscape. Not that the teachings and videos for example that companies use to inform their employees about the latest EEOC regs or what has happened from the Supreme Court in cases, what the obligations are, the dos and don'ts, focusing mainly on the don'ts, the recommendations to engage in conversations with primarily, at least initially, with men, to involve men and to have men become active allies for their female colleagues. Out of those recommendations came our Conversations With Men initiative. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. Yes, absolutely, which is I thought just so creative. So, why don't we just, yeah, let's dive into it. Would you like to tell us a bit about it? The initiative is Conversations With Men, and so what does that look like? 

Corrine Parver: 

A good segue into it. 

Rio Peterson: 

Segue. 

Corrine Parver: 

Which is still going. The power of male allyship is, we deem to be, quite significant and crucial, and a lot of the work that's being done in the legal profession on these issues has been done by women, primarily. You'll have a lot of women's initiatives in law firms, women in charge of mentoring and education that really has nothing to do with the practice of law but working in legal employment settings. So, that has been something that we wanted to make sure that we were able to develop an initiative that would address those issues. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, and we did a lot of research just looking at who was doing what and what exactly were they doing in the male allyship space. We talked to some of the experts, people who've written books on the topic, and we convened some thought leaders to talk to us about what we might be able to do. 

We also convened what we called an expert taskforce. We had people on that taskforce like Chai Feldblum, who was an EEOC commissioner. She was the author of the seminal work on sexual harassment in the workplace for the EEOC. Corrine mentioned that our Still Broken survey was spearheaded by Dr. Arin Reeves. We got her also to help us structure these conversations, because we wanted them to be open and honest with prompts and very thoughtful information. 

But we also decided, with the help of that expert task force, that the facilitator should be ... We knew the facilitator was going to be a professional, but we decided that it was going to be a male. We thought that was important because we wanted no barrier to honest conversation. If they wanted to talk about their locker rooms, go for it, okay? 

But we couldn't find a male facilitator that had this expertise. I mean, there's just a tiny handful of these people. So, we paired up a professional facilitator, who was actually a clinical law professor at Harvard of facilitation and mediation, we paired him up with Dr. Reeves, and together with Women Lawyers on Guard, we structured the sessions. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Let's talk a little bit more about those sessions. What did the mechanics of those meetings look like? I know this is still, this project is ongoing. So, how did it start? What was the first couple sessions like? 

Corrine Parver: 

Well, we decided that we would ask our network of women lawyers to nominate men to participate in the focus groups. We sent letters to ... Once we had the information about the men they were going to nominate, we realized quickly that everybody was very enthusiastic and accepted the invitation almost instantly. 

Rio Peterson: 

It's what you planned, right? [inaudible 00:39:46]. 

Corrine Parver: 

Right. So, we convened focus groups of 10 men, and each of the focus groups met twice. They had an initial meeting with the facilitator. We also had a male note-taker who was introduced at the start of the session and then sort of was blank space afterwards, so that we were able to get notes from each of the sessions. 

Cory Amron: 

Anonymous, by the way. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Corrine Parver: 

The people did not know each other, who were in the groups. We made sure that the groups were diverse in every respect you could think, area of the country, legal place of employment, seniority, and the like. 

Cory Amron: 

Race, ethnicity. 

Corrine Parver: 

Ethnicity. Yeah. We tried to over every- 

Cory Amron: 

We had gay guys. We had a disabled person. Yeah. 

Corrine Parver: 

We had professors. We had judges, partners in law firms, general counsel of corporations. So, we had 50 people in the five focus groups. They met twice officially, and the facilitator had a curriculum and encouraged ... Really, it wasn't a lecture type of curriculum. It wasn't professorial. It was a true conversations that were structured over issues of sexual harassment. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right, and so for the first session, they would have a discussion and talk about things, and then what happened in the second session? 

Cory Amron: 

Well, first of all, before they got to the first session, they were told that they should read Still Broken. 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. 

Cory Amron: 

We gave them a bunch of resources to look at, but Still Broken was at the top of the list. So, the conversation centered around what was happening and what they had read, what they had experienced, the types of prompts that was structuring the discussion. By and large, these were guys who obviously had ... well, had been nominated, right? So, they wanted to be there. By and large, they were shocked and credulous. They were just like, "Wow, really?" Because again, they were the ones that really weren't seeing it, for the most part. There were some that were working in their places of employment on these issues, but for the most part, these were people who were not seeing it. 

So, in between the first and the second session, they were asked to talk to women in their lives, their relatives, their colleagues at work, their neighbors, whatever, just to ask them, "Just talk to me about sexual harassment." Not were you sexually harassed, but just talk to me. 

To a person, when they came back into the second session, they were blown away. Absolutely blown away. They had no idea that their wife, let's say, this was the way she comported herself, or this is what the experiences that she has seen, or just that part of their life, their lived life. So, they were extremely, very, very impacted by this. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. So, you mentioned that initially, this was two sessions, but that these conversations are still continuing today. Can you tell me a little bit about that? 

Corrine Parver: 

Well, we had provided the men with some active ally actions that they could take once the two sessions, two conversations were complete, and it was an extensive list of things that they could do. About a dozen or so of the 50 men decided that they wanted to continue the conversations with the facilitator, and they've been meeting now how long, Cory? Over a year. 

Cory Amron: 

Over a year and a half. 

Corrine Parver: 

Yeah, with a facilitator. 

Cory Amron: 

Every month. 

Corrine Parver: 

Once a month, every month. We are now seriously trying to plan the next cohort of 50 men. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Did it surprise you that they wanted to continue the conversation? 

Corrine Parver: 

Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes? 

Corrine Parver: 

Yeah. Yeah. We were constantly getting feedback, whether through the notes from the note-taker or from our conversations with the facilitator, which we held religiously. Some of the discussions also entered into the area of gender discrimination and the role of women in the legal profession, which was fine with us, if the conversations expanded to include that type of discussion. The facilitator always brought the focus back into what are the active ally actions were they engaging it, et cetera? So, they didn't veer too far off of the topic, but they obviously were seeing changes that they were able to impart within their places of employment, and they were just enjoying the comradery that was developed and, "This is what happened to me and my firm," type of discussions. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. 

Cory Amron: 

One thing that I also appreciated and would not have otherwise appreciated was how they talked about the nuances of what maybe ... Like if you were a bystander, and you saw this happening, they brought a lot of that into these discussions and talked over, "Oh, what should I have done?" Or, "What did I do, and was that the right thing to do?" 

Talking about these nuances, I think made them realize that you know, not every situation is the same, and you just don't have one script that you can work off of in every single situation. So, I thought that was fascinating, that they came to that realization and were very, very attuned to not necessarily what they wanted to do, but what the person that was being harassed, I hesitate to say needed, but from that person's perspective, what might the bystander do? 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, what could be helpful or useful in the moment. 

Cory Amron: 

Yes. Right. 

Corrine Parver: 

Which is what led us to develop a Bystander Intervention Toolkit, which we're in the process of finalizing. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, fantastic. I think that's such an important way to help people frame a situation, is perhaps not so much think about yourself in that moment, but how can I be of service? How can I be helpful? And also, the importance of recognizing it's a dynamic issue. There is not a one-size-fits-all solution for every situation, and that's a really powerful tool. I mean, it sounds like it's inspired some pretty tangible, positive change, really, at the end of the day. 

Corrine Parver: 

Right. 

Rio Peterson: 

I'm curious to know, how does that make you both feel? Do you feel accomplished and fantastic about that? Because you should. It's pretty amazing. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. I think the bystander toolkit will really be of help, particularly when these occurrences take place in a group setting. One of the things, the surprising things also that we discovered was that it's not just in a single office with one-on-one interactions. It could happen, and does happen, in group settings. 

So, if you're a fella, and there's five guys around and one woman, and someone makes an untoward comment, how should you react? What are the things that you could say or do in the moment to diffuse a situation or, "We don't talk like that around here," or things like that, you know? "That's very surprising you should make a comment like that," and the like. 

Cory Amron: 

And actually, sometimes they are coming to the realization that the person who's being harassed has it under control and that it's best not to be the knight in shining armor zapping in or whatever, being patronized or whatever. So, that's also an important perspective, trying to discern the difference between those situations. It's hard. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right, trying to navigate the nuances. 

Cory Amron: 

Mm-hmm. 

Rio Peterson: 

Certainly not a map we're all just born with, so it's very, very important. Oh, that's fantastic. So, we've got the bystander toolkit coming up, where you're working on facilitating a second round of conversations with men. What else is next? Is there more on the horizon for Women Lawyers on Guard? 

Cory Amron: 

Go for it. 

Corrine Parver: 

Well, I don't know that we can talk too much without getting our board approval on that. 

Rio Peterson: 

So yes, but to be coming soon. 

Corrine Parver: 

But I think in the other areas that we're working on, the reproductive healthcare rights, is a never-ending avenue for us to give our assistance. There's been so many court cases that have altered the landscape, and so that is something that's taking up a fair amount of our time right now, as well. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Absolutely. It's a massive mountain to scale, that one. Yeah. Well, this is fantastic. I know we've got just a couple more minutes left. I would love for you to tell us how people can get involved with Women Lawyers on Guard. Where can they find you? How can they lend their support? 

Corrine Parver: 

That's a wonderful question to end with. 

Cory Amron: 

Well first, if there's anybody who would like to nominate a guy for our upcoming sessions, we would love to hear from them. My email address is C Amron, so camron, C-A-M-R-O-N @womenlawyersonguard.org. So, we'd really love to hear your nominations. 

Corrine Parver: 

And we'd love to have you join us. There is no fee to join Women Lawyers on Guard. The website is www.womenlawyersonguard.org, where you can see all the reports of the work that we've accomplished thus far and also take a look at some of the amicus briefs that we've participated in. That's all online. We would love to have your listeners join our mighty band. 

Rio Peterson: 

And we would love for them to do that, as well, and we'll make sure to put the website and your email, Cory, in the show notes so that if anybody would like to get in touch, they have an easy way to do that, and definitely nominate someone to participate in more Conversations With Men. That'd be fantastic. Well, thank you both so much. This has been really incredible. It's really incredible work that you're both doing, and I'm very happy we got to discuss it today. 

Cory Amron: 

Well, thank you. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. We really appreciate you inviting us. 

Cory Amron: 

Yes, and ALPS has been a stalwart supporter of ours, so we're very appreciative about that. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, wonderful. Well, hopefully once you have the toolkit out and the next round of Conversations With Men, we can do this again, keep the conversation going. 

Cory Amron: 

Sounds good. 

Corrine Parver: 

That's a date. Thank you. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wonderful. All right. Thank you so much, everyone, and this has been episode 83 of In Brief, and we will see you next time. There we go. We're done. 

Corrine Parver: 

Yay. 

Rio Peterson: 

Wonderful. Oh, thank you both so much. That was fantastic. 

Corrine Parver: 

I'm glad that you found it worthwhile. Good. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah. Thank you for your enthusiasm. It wasn't just like, "Oh, let's see, what's the next question?" 

Rio Peterson: 

Well, it's definitely something I feel is very important, and it hits close to home in a lot of ways. I'm just so blown away just reading through Still Broken and the Conversations With Men. It's just such a fascinating approach, too. The way you've tackled this issue, it's really inspiring. I've really, really enjoyed digging into your work and getting to talk with you both about this. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. 

Cory Amron: 

Thank you, especially because there have been some who have looked at the construct that we're trying to bring forth, which is active male allies, and said that they can't ... not that they can't support the initiative, but they can't use their DEI dollars for it because it doesn't either A, they can't see the obvious impact on women, or B, they can't spend money on something that is just male-oriented. I'm like, "But you don't see the tunnel." 

Corrine Parver: 

Yeah, very frustrating. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah, it is. It's very frustrating. 

Rio Peterson: 

There's a very larger picture you're not seeing there. 

Cory Amron: 

Yeah. 

Corrine Parver: 

And for us, the funding issue becomes an issue. It's very important that we can be able to garner sufficient funds to keep these programs going, because we don't have a fee to belong to the organization. So, like what ALPS has given us in contributions has been very important. 

Rio Peterson: 

All right. Well, hopefully we can keep that going, keep that support coming. 

Cory Amron: 

Thank you so, so much. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. 

Rio Peterson: 

Absolutely. 

Cory Amron: 

Great to see you. 

Rio Peterson: 

Great to see you both. So, I will let you know when the episode publishes and we can tag you in the social posts, and get the word out there. Yeah. 

Cory Amron: 

Great. Great. 

Corrine Parver: 

Thank you. 

Cory Amron: 

Great. Thank you. 

Rio Peterson: 

Thank you both so much. I hope you guys have a great day. 

Cory Amron: 

Thanks. You, too. 

Corrine Parver: 

Bye. 

Rio Peterson: 

Bye-bye. 

ALPS In Brief - Episode 82: How to Build and Maintain a Strong Legal Practice

Hello. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte. I'm the risk manager here at ALPS, and welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. 

For those of you that aren't familiar with me, I've been practicing at ALPS, serving in the role of risk manager for over 26 years, and, recently, it's been about two and a half, maybe ... Coming up on. Well, two and a half. Two and a half. I got to think through this. 

I have been blessed to be able to have my wife and I move to Florida, so I'm coming to you from our remote location here in St. Cloud, Florida on a beautiful day. 

I want to continue with some conversations that I've had over the years, and this fits in the category of listening to your life, focusing on some growth issues, and really the purpose of this particular podcast is to talk about how to build, and, perhaps, even more importantly, how to maintain a successful law practice. 

There's a lot written out there on the importance of marketing, networking. I've lectured, and written on a lot of this, myself, and I really don't want to dismiss that. That's very important, in terms of building a practice, as is understanding the marketplace, having all the correct tools. There's lots of things, if you will, on the business side that need to be addressed, and they are very important. 

But the older I get, I continue to discover, and appreciate the value of something else, and it really is what I would describe as the foundation, and foundations in relationships, as an example, and in many aspects of our lives, I've come to learn, are so important, whether that's a foundation ... To become a foundation for your children, as they grow, to have a foundation built on commitment in personal relationships, particularly, in the context of a marriage. It's just something that I have found to be very, very relevant. 

So, I'm going to talk about the foundation necessary to build and maintain a successful law practice, and really what I'm talking about is wellness. I have written and talked for years about how impairment issues are significant, in terms of their role in practice claims, in grievances, and all that, but I'm coming at it from a different angle, and I really do believe that a foundation in the practice of law, a personal foundation, based on wellness is absolutely essential, and fundamental to the long-term success of a successful law practice. 

And I'm going to be, as we talk today, sharing a little bit about myself, and I'm not here to suggest, in any way, shape, or form that I've got it all figured out. I absolutely don't, but I do want to say I'm on a journey, and it is a wellness journey. I have yet to find the end point, if you will, and I mean I remain a work-in-process. 

That's going to be true for me for the rest of my life, because life is a journey, and I guess, at some point, the journey will come to an end, and perhaps, in some way, that's an end point, depending on what you believe, but while we're here, in a physical body, in this wonderful place we call Earth, for all of us, it's a journey, and so I encourage you to consider that, and let's talk about what is important, in terms of wellness, as we go through this journey. 

In my mind, wellness ... This is far more than just about health. Okay? I'm going to talk a little bit about health, but it really is about all aspects of one's life. We need to have wellness in our personal lives, in our professional lives, in our spiritual lives, it just goes on and on. 

And, again, to the degree that we struggle individually with any aspect of wellness, in any aspect of our life, that can create some problems. How do you think impairments arise? If we're not taking care of ourselves, we can get overwhelmed, we can get burned out, we can get depressed, we can turn to alcohol, et cetera, et cetera. I don't want to rehash all that. 

All I'll say is to really stay strong, to stay focused, wellness matters. Let me ask some questions just to set this up. Are you happy in your life? In terms of generally happy. I have days where I'm not happy. Things can be kind of crazy. I've had a rough week, to be honest with you. A colleague recently passed very unexpectedly, and that's been difficult. It's been very difficult. I've gone through some health issues, nothing overly concerning, but some surgery that was necessary, and, let's just say, it was a little rougher than anticipated, so there are normal stressors in life. Things happen, but I would say, generally, I have an overall sense of happiness, an overall sense of fulfillment, an overall sense of purpose. 

Is life stress-free? No, but even the times ... Even good things happening in life can be stressful, so it's about wellness. How do we handle the stress? How are we working through the issues? 

Okay. That's the broad stuff, but let's dig in a little bit, and talk about really what wellness means, if you will, in the practice of law, and talk about why it's important. 

Let me knock it out there, in terms of the first topic, because it's so significant. We do need to set some boundaries. We're not going to really talk about how can we find, and maintain wellness here. We do need to set boundaries, and you hear these discussions all the time, and, honestly, speaking personally, "Well, it's about maintaining balance," and I just ... It drives me crazy. I fail to understand how if we find some balance between two aspects of our lives, that that solves anything, because by even framing it that way, the assumption is that some aspect of your life is unhealthy, and if we bring some other aspect of your life that is healthy into balance with this, somehow that fixes everything, and, no. No. All aspects of your life have to be happy, and healthy. 

And, typically, when we're talking about balance between professional life, and work life, there's this assumption that we're devoting too much time, and things are out of balance, and it's not healthy for us in terms of our professional life, so let's talk about setting boundaries, and we could talk for a long time about all the different ways to do this, but what I really want to say to you, whether you're brand-new in practice, or have been practicing for 50 years, and still struggle with this, sometimes it's important to hear from a fellow lawyer, a fellow ... Someone that gets it with you. 

Life can be crazy, both externally, in terms of your personal life, and professionally. It's okay to take care of yourself. Self-care, self-prioritization is not selfish. It's not saying to your client that, "You don't matter to me." You need to work, to have a life. That's really what we're doing here, so set some boundaries. 

If you work great in the morning, or some people are morning people, some people are afternoon people, whatever time of day is really good for you to knock some work out, protect that. Don't have the phone ringing all the time, and people scheduling appointments. Have some quiet time, and really prioritize that. Stick to it, and give staff the ability, or the permission, if you will, to enforce the time that you set aside. Turn off notifications, don't check your email, et cetera, et cetera. I would schedule some breaks throughout each day, in terms of the work day, primarily, even if it's just 10 minutes now and again to get outside, and get a little sun, to get outside and just clear your mind. 

I have found that to be very effective. Sometimes I just need a mental break, and so I'll go out, and just stroll a little bit, and that can provide clarity. I can problem solve at times doing this, because I give myself permission not to worry about it, and I give myself permission to just go, and be calm. 

So, set some boundaries. On personal time, you don't need to be available 24/7. So, unplug, turn this thing off, get off of the Matrix. That's okay. It's not selfish. It's something you deserve, and it's how you stay professionally sharp. If you're never recharging your batteries, just to even have some time to de-stress and get the work done that needs to be done, or have time to clear your head, it's all good. You have to have that, or the ax is going to get dull. 

So, another thing that I strongly encourage you to do is just invest in your physical health, because, again, boy, I could tell you some stories over the years with all the consulting I've done, and I have worked with more attorneys than I ever thought, who had all kinds of health issues, that were tremendously impacting their ability to competently, in a few situations, serve their clients. 

I literally had to go into one solo practice, at one point, and tell them, "You're done practicing today," and it was not a conversation I was looking forward to, but, at the end of the day, I got to tell you, you know what the response was? Just one of relief. Finally, somebody gave him permission to say, "It's okay. You're done. You can't ..." He was able to acknowledge, and finally just say to himself, "Okay ... It didn't need to be that way. Get some exercise." It improves cognitive function. I mean it really does. Eat reasonably well. All this fast food crap that's out there, we all know that just shoving junk into your body morning, noon, and night, day after day is going to not serve you well. 

You want to try to get a good night's sleep, and just rest. Again, that needs to be prioritized at times. Yes, there will be times, perhaps a hearing coming up, or something, and where some of these things have to go by the wayside a little bit, and that's okay, but you got to get back into the routine. 

As you go through this journey of living, and being an attorney, and serving your clients, you still have to care for yourself. One of the things that I do, and if you've listened to some of my other podcasts, I enjoy tremendously going out, and cycling. I do a lot of cycling, and that is just a place, again, where I can be calm, and where I can just enjoy the moment, and, for whatever reason, it works for me. I love it. Even if it's indoors, at times, you're ... Depending on the hour, and time of day, and weather, I do a lot of riding indoors, and that's where I get some of my best writing in, believe it or not. I put in anywhere between 1500, 2000 miles a year, and it is a great workout indoors, and I just love it. 

Playing tennis is another thing I've taken up, I got back into, after a number of years, but doing it here in Florida, we're very blessed to be near the USTA, the USA's Tennis Association, national campus, and I'll be honest and say, there are many times where I either have a tennis lesson over there, or here at the local courts, meeting with some friends, and playing, I'll tell you honestly, there's a lot of times where I just don't want to go. It's been busy, been a crazy day, and I just, "Ugh." I've never missed, though. I always just force myself to do it, and here's the crazy thing, never once have I regretted going, and I've always had a blast every time. 

So, invest in your physical health. It pays back in spades, in terms of energy, staying mentally competent, still enjoying what you do. If you're out of shape, overworked, poor diet, poor rest, it's no wonder so many lawyers struggle in our profession with just not being happy, and it's not working, and they're just going burnt, because, again, they're not taking care of the physical health. Extremely, extremely important. That's the foundation. It honestly is. 

Prioritize mental and emotional wellbeing. I'm not a mindfulness guy, but I really, really need you to hear the mindfulness movement has really helped so, so many people. Try it out. If it works for you, great. If it doesn't, okay. Meditation. You just need to find ways to manage stress, and those are two excellent ways. I have to be honest, and say I've tried them some. I will admit, I've not really gone gung-ho on this, but I'll go back to cycling. For me, that's where I can find calmness. To me, I guess I'd say that's the way I meditate, and it's a very I guess non-traditional way, perhaps, I don't know. I'm not a guru in meditation, but it works for me, so find ways. 

I do need to say, if you feel that you are struggling in some ways with burnout, depression, anxiety is another thing that I have seen recently, in a very dear and good friend, that I'm concerned about, and I do try to listen, and say, "We got to address this. What can I do to help?" 

But if you feel that there's some challenges there, I strongly support, and encourage you trying to find some help, whatever that might be. Visiting with a colleague perhaps, a pastor, a social worker, a psychiatrist, depending on the issue, the answer or solution to this is going to differ, but, please don't ignore that. It's just not worth it. 

On a parallel, or tangent here, please don't minimize the importance too of building, maintaining, and, by that, I mean nurturing, your support systems. They're so important over the years, and, boy, have I come to learn that too, whether it's colleagues, friends, family members, extended family members, your significant other. These are the people that are here for you, and can do wonderful things to help care for you, to be supportive of you, to be a cheerleader for you. 

Of course, the gift is a two-way street. You need to invest in them as well. But isn't that what the journey is all about? What's the point of going through a journey of life without anybody to validate the journey? To go with you? To share the experience? And to, also, have you experience someone else's journey? Again, this is a two-way street. There's more than just one relationship there. 

Let's talk a little bit about the office too. It's important to create a positive work environment, whether that's a home office, which is where I'm sitting right now, or an office, a brick and mortar law firm, but you do need to make it a positive kind of thing. 

I have created a calming space, and you really can't see the whole thing here. If some of you can't listen, over the years, I have ... I'm a Disney person. My wife and I have been members of the Disney Vacation Club for years, and years, and years, and, literally, have traveled a number of places around the world with Disney. Kids were raised Disney. We have a lot of fun. I am in a Disney space. Again, that's calming to me, and it's full of pictures and all kinds of things that are memories. You can see some in the back ... Well, see this side of the background here. There's a Disney cruise ship. There's a photo of myself when I was quite a bit younger with my daughter, when she was a lot younger, on my back, hiking in Glacier National Park. 

There are things that are very special, and memorable. That's a calming positive workspace for me. Let's create a culture of respect, and support among staff, and colleagues, at your firm, assuming you're not just a true solo. Let's encourage open, honest communication, respectful, but we need to talk about if somebody's having a problem, or you're having a problem with somebody, "I can't trust this individual to do things," and you don't want to delegate, or something, we need to work through that. 

On healthy relationships, again, just left alone and unaddressed, really begin to impact the health and wellness of the workplace setting, so let's address that. I would encourage you to engage in continuous learning, and here's an interesting ... Yes. I'm talking about CLE, and maintaining our competency, whether that's through webinars, but maybe networking, and mentor kinds of stuff. It's very, very important to ... You can read up on journals, and publications, and there's all kinds of things that you can do professionally, and I do that, I go to conferences, I present webinars, and there's a lot of learning that goes into being able to present a webinar, or put together a CLE, and I, obviously, attend a lot of CLEs, and that helps keep me sharp. 

But I'd encourage you to go further. The mind needs to stay active, and the mind needs to be stimulated. I'll be honest, and say, at times, the ethics world, which is a lot of my world, and cybersecurity, those are very, very stimulating topics for me, and I love working through hypos, and reading things, and having a lot of fun, and just like, "Oh, how do you solve this?" But, also, I love physics, I love to cook, and so there are this aspect of continual learning, even learning to play tennis, and trying to study the game, how do you position yourself, and what are the tactics on a double score? As an example. 

I got to cook ... I cook a variety of cuisines, Chinese, Mexican, Spanish, the list just goes on, and that, again, helps keep me sharp. So, I think continuous learning is so, so important, so find the things that interest you, that, again, that keep the desire to learn, and to grow alive. That is going to bring out so much more in terms of even just who you are, and how successful you can be in building, and maintaining your law practice. 

Finally, I would say give back. Give back. There's all kinds of ways you can do this, pro bono is a great way. You can volunteer for legal aid organizations. You can mentor. There's a lot that you can do professionally, and just get involved with state bar, local bar, and present some [inaudible 00:24:22] now and again. 

But you can also just give back in so many other ways, whether that's getting involved with any local charity organizations, Boys and Girls of America, being ... Working in a museum, working at a children's hospital. Just the list just goes on and on and on. I've done some of these things over the years with a volunteer thing, National Cancer Institute, and I have worked at a children's orthopedic hospital years ago, as a volunteer. Boy, was that crazy? I learned more from kids that were dying, I am not kidding you, than I have ever learned in any other setting. The professional and personal growth with that experience, I will never, ever forget. 

So, there's just a variety of things, but being able to give back, it feeds and nurtures the soul, if you will. That's my personal experience, and, again, it helps me be the best person that I can be, and I'm always open to growing and learning, because, again, that's the point of the journey. That's the point. 

I guess I have one other thought too. I would encourage you to focus on spiritual as well. I'm not sitting here saying, "You got to go out, and go to church," so many times a month. That's not what I'm getting to, but I do believe there is value in perhaps appreciating just that the gift that you've been given, the gift of having the opportunity to have a life's journey, and the older I get, I can appreciate ... They always talk about this attitude of gratitude, but just acknowledging life's good, and I'm very thankful, and I do feel blessed, and this isn't about placing some God a way ... It's just about this ... I just acknowledge that the journey I'm on, and the life that I've been given is of value, and I try to figure out what my role is with it, what my purpose is, and for a lot of years, I've had to have a purpose. 

I have a purpose. I do. How you answer that, what is your purpose, it may change over time, and it's not always easy, but it's also not that hard. I have been so proud of just the dad that I have been over the years. Did I do it perfectly? Oh, heck no. I assure you, but I've been a really good dad. I really have. 

That's one purpose. I've raised five wonderful, beautiful children. I am very proud of who I am as a husband. I am proud of who I am, as a friend to a number of people, and very proud that they chose to be my friend. I could go on with all this, and it's not important, I'm just trying to give you some examples, but find a purpose, and this whole spiritual side, I think, again, can be so fundamental in terms of grounding ourselves, as we build this personal and professional foundation. 

We need to be strong in character. We need to be strong in knowing who we are, what we have to offer, what we want to offer. I'm trying to say, again, this is how you bring out the best in who you can be, and that will serve you, your support systems, your clients, everybody that you work with, and for, better than anything else I can think of. Marketing, very important, but if this foundation isn't there, the marketing efforts aren't going to work out for the long-term anyway. You're going to have your challenges, and struggles. 

So, I guess I'm going to leave it at that. I hope you have found something of interest, something of value with this soliloquy, and I really would love if any of you have thoughts, and want to share stories, or talk about any of this. Please don't hesitate to reach out. I am a risk manager for ALPS, but that doesn't mean I'm their risk manager. ALPS hires me to be your risk manager, and I'm a support system, and someone that's here just to enter into relationship, so if you ever care to chat, just give me a call, or send an email, we set something up. It's MBass, M-B-A-S-S, at ALPS Insurance, one word, A-L-P-S, insurance dot com. 

That's it, folks. Have a blessed day, and stay strong in the practice. Bye-bye. 

Episode 81: Tam Nash, ABA YLD President - Inspiring First Gen Lawyers to Summit New Heights

In this episode of ALPS In Brief, our Bar Partnerships Strategist Rio Peterson sits down with Tamara Nash, Director of Experiential Learning and lecturer at the University of South Dakota School of Law and Chair of the ABA's Young Lawyer Division. They dive into her upcoming initiatives for the year ahead and discuss the inspiration behind her focus on empowering and motivating new and aspiring lawyers. Lastly Tamara, a first-generation lawyer herself, shares her plans to reach more young lawyers by organizing the ABA's inaugural first-generation summit in April 2024.

—

Rio Peterson: 

Hello everybody and welcome to episode 81 of the In Brief podcast. I'm your host today Rio Peterson, coming to you live from Chicago. And as we all know, I am the bar partnership strategist here at ALPS and one of your new hosts for the podcast. So today I am sitting down with the fantastic and fabulous Tamara Nash. Hello. 

Tamara Nash: 

Hi. 

Rio Peterson: 

How are you? 

Tamara Nash: 

I'm great. How are you today? 

Rio Peterson: 

Good, I'm fantastic. Better that I get to sit here and chat with you. So we are both attending BLI, the Bar Leader Institute conference here in Chicago. And so we thought this would be a great time to sit down and talk about a lot of, well, all of, or as many as we can, the exciting things that Tam is doing because you do all the things. So yeah, happy to have you. Thanks for joining me. 

Tamara Nash: 

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. 

Rio Peterson: 

Fantastic. All right, so let's get started. I would love to hear a little bit more about you. I mean, obviously I know a little bit about you, but our listeners don't. So why don't you tell me a little bit about who you are, what you do, and yeah, we'll go from there. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, I would love to. So those kind of questions always strike a chord of panic. Who are you? It's like, "Well, let me encapsulate my life in this one sentence." I always like to start that with I'm a proud first-generation attorney, born and raised in Omaha, Nebraska, and then transplant to South Dakota, a proud South Dakota young lawyer, but I can only say that for one more year and then I'll be aging out. So I'll go kicking and screaming to veteran attorney status. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. 

Tamara Nash: 

O I guess a quasi veteran attorney status, but... 

Rio Peterson: 

Young veteran attorney. 

Tamara Nash: 

Young veteran attorney. Yes, I like that. We'll bring that term into use. I am the oldest sibling of three. I'm very close with my siblings. I have a brand new nephew and I have a niece. I'm quite obsessed with them. I bring them up any chance that I can get. I was a prosecutor for about eight years and then recently made a transition into academia. I currently have the joy of serving as the director of experiential learning and a lecturer at the University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law. And I am kind of a serial joiner. I really like bar service, so I do quite a bit in the South Dakota State Bar as well as the American Bar Association and the American Bar Association Young Lawyers Division and just try to squeeze in time to read and bake when I'm not doing all of those things. 

Rio Peterson: 

I do all of the things when I'm not doing all of them. 

Tamara Nash: 

Basically, yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. And so I think it's incredible that you do all those things. It really just shows that you're so passionate about what you do. And so something I would really love to hear is a little bit about your origin story because I know you mentioned that you're a first-generation lawyer, so that's a really, I think, exciting thing when somebody in your family takes that next step. So I'd love to know more about what inspired you to become a lawyer. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. So I love telling this story. It's something I'm super proud about and something that has always followed me. It's always like a little seed or flower I carry with me everywhere. So I think I come from a family of helpers, a family of people who always want to improve the world, make the world better and have done that in kind of their own little way. But no one in my family ever really went to professional school, ever did anything like this. I mean, my grandfather had a third grade education and started his own business. So I mean, so amazing feat from that, a Black man from Mississippi. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Tamara Nash: 

So extraordinary journey and path that he lived. But my kind of story was inspired by an amazing teacher. My sixth grade teacher let us create a mini society. So we had our own money, we had our own name, we had our own businesses, and one of our classmates had a hot dog stand, which beside the point of how weird and creepy that is, that sixth-graders were selling hot dogs to other sixth-graders, we had a mini society day where some of us were selling... I had a supply store with my friends, they had their hot dog stand, but apparently my friend's classmates thought he wasn't pulling his end of the labor. And so they fired him. 

And my teacher said, "Well, you can do something about that." So our class had a wrongful termination lawsuit and some of us were jury members, some of us served as attorneys. I was his attorney. One of us was a judge. And it just changed something inside of me. It was the coolest thing I've ever done. And my teacher was like, "You seemed to really enjoy that." And so he brought in three Black women to talk to me about what it meant to be a lawyer and what they did every day. And I sat with them in the school cafeteria during the school day and just learned about it. And it planted the seed inside of me of what I could do and what my life could be. 

And I kind of had ups and downs through school. I didn't do very well the whole time. But when I got to college, that dream came to fruition. I took the LSAT, the law school admissions test and was like, "I can do this, and went to law school. And so I went to University of South Dakota Knudson School of Law and the dream of following in the footsteps of helpers and my family kind of came to life. So it all started with a hot dog stand. 

Rio Peterson: 

Did you win? Did you win the case? 

Tamara Nash: 

We did. We did. Yes. But really we were all winners. We were all winners. 

Rio Peterson: 

That's really incredible. It's really a testament to the power that education and certain adults in your life can have to influence and inspire the direction you go. And do you still keep in touch with that teacher? 

Tamara Nash: 

I do. So his name is Mr. Summit. We keep in contact periodically on Facebook. And I very much believe that my journey and my life has been influenced and my trajectory has been changed by people who have intervened and got involved and influenced me in these monumental ways. And he's just one of the several examples of people who've changed my life. And so yeah, I'm so appreciative of him for something that he probably thought was no big deal, but literally changed the course of my life. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I love too that he thought to bring three women that you could relate to and connect with as a woman of color and show you," Hey, this is what you can do." 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

That's amazing. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Tamara Nash: 

It's so powerful. I mean, you have to see it to believe it, and that's what he did. And it just planted the seed that took years to blossom, but when it did, it came with a vengeance. So it's really cool 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, I love that. That's fantastic. That's a great origin story. 

Tamara Nash: 

Thanks. 

Rio Peterson: 

Was there anyone during your journey through law school and as a young lawyer who also inspired you in that way or pushed you forward? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. So I mean, sincerely mean it when I say I've had amazing mentors who've been pivotal in my life. As a young lawyer, I've had a few mentors who have just been wonderful, who've taught me how to be a young lawyer, how to navigate the profession, how to have empathy, how to have compassion, how to be a professional. 

I had one mentor in particular, I remember it's the summer between second year and third year, everyone's interviewing for jobs. And I remember walking out of that interview and I thought to myself, "Whatever I got to do to work for this person, I'll do it." Just you connect with a person and you just know this is who I am supposed to learn from. And fate aligned that I got that internship and it was with the US Attorney's Office in South Dakota. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, wow. 

Tamara Nash: 

And it changed life. And I'm still mentee with that person, and I still call on them when I want to know what to do in life or what decisions to make. And the coolest thing about it is that person ended up becoming a judge and then I ended up becoming their clerk by happenstance. We both kind of got the same job the next year. And so our lives kind of tracked for a couple paces after that. 

And so that person has been such a pivotal mentor and role model and encourager and champion in my life. And I think that's one thing that makes the South Dakota Bar so amazing is that it's such a close-knit community that I don't know a single young lawyer who hasn't been impacted by an amazing mentor, someone who's been a champion to them, cheered them on, encouraged them, provided opportunities. And I am so fortunate to be not at all from South Dakota, but benefiting from an amazing bar and amazing mentors. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. And really the role of mentorship is so important, especially when you're new at something. I mean, whether you're coming into the profession as a young person or even maybe a bit later in life, it can be a very daunting and intimidating thing to be surrounded by all these very intelligent people who know what's going on. So it's really fantastic to know that it is understood that that is such an important thing for people to have that support when they're trying to figure out who they are and where they're going to end up in this profession. 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. And especially as a first-generation attorney where you don't have a parent who came before you who can tell you, "This is what you do when you go golfing," or, "This is how you interact at this fancy lunch." And for someone to just sit you down and tell you these unspoken rules or just to encourage you and remind you, you are here for a reason. 

Rio Peterson: 

You belong here. 

Tamara Nash: 

You belong. Exactly. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Tamara Nash: 

And then just the power of someone saying your name in rooms you're not in, and to help you seek opportunities and achieve and push yourself, it is so powerful and it means so much. So it's really exciting. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. And I think there's kind of a theme that I keep hearing when I get to speak to incredible legal professionals. It's that a lot of the legal community is of the opinion that success is not a zero-sum game. There's enough opportunity for everyone, there's enough success, and if we just work together and bring each other up, we're all going to do well. And... 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

... the world I think in general will do well from that. 

Tamara Nash: 

Oh, yes. Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, our whole profession succeeds. One of the cool things is there's a session here at BLI, the Bar Leadership Institute, leadership is a team sport. We all succeed when one of us succeeds. We don't take away from any of us or any one of us. And I believe sincerely that when we dig in and work together to do our joint mission, whether that's serving justice, whether that's a strategic plan, whatever the goal is, we all come out enriched for whatever that is. And that's how my mentors taught me. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes, yes. And so in your role as a teacher and a lecturer, is mentorship something that you speak about with your students and encourage? 

Tamara Nash: 

It is. Mentorship is such an amorphous topic to teach, though. It's so hard to say, "Mentor, find one." 

Rio Peterson: 

[inaudible 00:12:38] right now with somebody. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, exactly. But I do, and I try to bring in folks to come in and guest lecture and different guest speakers and bring in my mentors to demonstrate how important it is. And I talk and try to be open and vulnerable about how I've benefited from mentorship and why it matters and how to find mentors and how to engage with your mentor and how to give back to your mentors because it's not a one-way street either. It's not someone you just call up like, "Hey, Bob, need a job, what you got for me," kind of thing." 

So yeah, we talk about it. And I think it's one of those things that as you grow in the profession, you understand what it means, kind of like I understood the opportunity that my sixth grade teacher gave me much more as I got older. And so I think it's one of those pieces as well. But I think the students really enjoy meeting professionals, understanding what they do and understanding how those connections can continue to be cultivated as they grow in their three years as law students and then much more beyond as lawyers. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Yeah, absolutely. That's fantastic. So you teach, but you were also a prosecutor for eight years? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, about eight years. 

Rio Peterson: 

Was that in South Dakota? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yes. Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Okay. How did you like it? 

Tamara Nash: 

I loved it. It was very challenging, very stressful, but I loved it. I loved my office and the mission and just the pursuit of justice, it mattered, and it was a very meaningful job to have. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Got it. And so then after your time as a prosecutor, you've now segued into, you work with the South Dakota Bar, you do work with the ABA ,and you teach. What are some of the things that you do with the South Dakota Bar? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, so I have been fortunate enough that as soon as I was licensed, I had folks say, "Come to bar service. Welcome. Welcome." And so I've been involved in the South Dakota State Bar and the American Bar Association pretty much since the time I've had a license. And so with the South Dakota State Bar, I've been on the Young Lawyers Board of Directors. I've been fortunate enough to serve as our South Dakota Young Lawyer Section President. And with the South Dakota State Bar, I am our young lawyer delegate to the ABA House of Delegates. I serve on a few different committees within our state bar, with our law school committee. I also this year serve as chair of our diversity, equity, and inclusion committee. And it's just been really cool to be a part of a state bar and to serve and lead in a state bar that has given me so much and really has been the reason I have a career. So it's been really rewarding. I enjoy it. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. And they recognize, they're like, "This woman gets things done. We need her to join the [inaudible 00:15:32]." Yeah, we know obviously ALPS works with the South Dakota Bar, and they're a fantastic group of people. So yeah, it's wonderful to hear too the impact that a bar and participating in your bar can have as well. And, oh, excuse me. Yeah, just the positive impact that can have in helping to push your career forward as well. 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

And helping you to connect with people. And I think also focusing on your passion. It sounds like you're very passionate about supporting young lawyers and helping them navigate the world, the legal profession, and becoming lawyers. I know... I mean, I think it's clear based on your work as well with the ABA, because you are the chair of the Young Lawyer Division this year for the ABA as well, right? 

Tamara Nash: 

I am. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. How did that come about? 

Tamara Nash: 

Oh, that's a windy, twisty turn of fate, truly a fate. And it's been such a remarkable just journey of kind of finding a home in the ABA. I attended my first ABA conference back in 2016 as a member of the board of directors for South Dakota, our young lawyer section. And I say this in all sincerity, although it sounds like a Hallmark card, knew I had found my home and found my people in my first meeting. And so instantly signed up for everything I could and tried to join all the things. And then someone was like, "All right, we'll need to narrow it down. So tell us one thing you want to do." And so I applied to become a scholar, which is a leadership development program at the Young Lawyers Division does each year. 16 young lawyers are selected to participate. And that we kind of lovingly and appropriately call a springboard into leadership. 

Rio Peterson: 

Great. 

Tamara Nash: 

And so that was kind of the first opportunity or segue into the Young Lawyers Division that I did. And after that held different positions as a director and committee leader and on different teams and on different boards. And everything that I did, I just kind of fell in love with the division more and lovingly call the division home, where I've made amazing, amazing friends that have kind of helped guide me through hard life stuff that we all live challenges, career changes, encouraged me as I'm negotiating new jobs, celebrating fun wins in life, and it's just kind of become this professional home that means so very much to me. And so I decided in 2019 to run a campaign, a year-long campaign to be secretary of the division and the successful candidate for that ascends to chair. And so that was four years ago... 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. 

Tamara Nash: 

... which leads us to today... 

Rio Peterson: 

Got it. 

Tamara Nash: 

... serving as chair. 

Rio Peterson: 

Well, I would buy that Hallmark card. Yeah, I love that you found that community. You just instantly were like, "Yes, this is where I need to be." And it really shows through all the work that you've done. And I know a project that you have coming up is a summit for first-generation lawyers, which we're very, very excited about. Do you want to tell us a bit about that? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. So I'm so very proud, very excited to be a part of the first-generation summit that we're able to put on. So kind of context of stepping back, we as the Young Lawyers Division have a first-generation initiative. Something that we are incredibly proud of is creating community for first-generation law students and young lawyers. It was a gap that we had that we didn't have a place where we could say, "Hey, this is who I am and this is something I'm proud of, and here are resources to support me." And that is a gap that we filled last year, last bar year. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. 

Tamara Nash: 

And a part of that is creating space where we can come together and be proud of who we are, to bring mentors into the space, to provide resources. And so on April 26th of this year, 2024, we'll be meeting in Houston, Texas to have a summit and really just celebrate that shared identity that I think we've all, a lot of first-generation, I should say, have gone through this transition of it used to be something that you felt, I wouldn't say embarrassed, but maybe felt like it used to be a barrier or a challenge. And now it's a badge of honor. To be a first-generation is synonymous with grit and tenacity and to be someone who perseveres. 

And we'll come together and celebrate that identity and that label. And we'll have high-schoolers there, we'll have college students there, law students, members of the judiciary and young lawyers, and just kind of celebrate that shared identity, build community and have some programming, have some networking breakfast, networking lunch, and really just celebrate who we are and that first-gen status. And we have some amazing partners, one of which is ALPS. We have the AccessLex Institute. And we have some of the Texas Bar Associations that have been fantastic partners, and South Texas College of Law has been a wonderful partner. And so we're just really excited to say, "We're here and we're proud of who we are and how can we help." 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. And I really love that you've included high school students in that as well. And I mean, giving them an opportunity to see the law as something that is viable and it is something they should be considering and that is open to them. And I know you've done work in the past with I think it's Project Destination, right? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yes. Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. So I love that because I think it's, especially for someone who doesn't come from a family of lawyers, even thinking about being a lawyer is maybe something they wouldn't be considering without someone being like, "Oh, actually you should." 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah, 100% 

Rio Peterson: 

"You can do this. This could be you." 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's the profound ability to see yourself in someone who looks like you, to say, "I did it. You can do it." And to plant that seed that we know that sometimes can take years to blossom. I'm the example of that, that someone took the time to plant a seed in me, and it took years for me to even think back on that. But once I did, and once life happened and the universe aligned, that seed blossomed. And it's just to take the time to pour into someone, pour life into someone, invest in them and believe in them, and for them to remember to believe in themselves as well. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think seizing the opportunity to create visibility around, I mean, particularly women of color and showing other young girls of color like, "Hey, this is something that you can do." I mean, I think about media and stuff, it's not often that you see that representation. 

Tamara Nash: 

Absolutely. 

Rio Peterson: 

So connecting with that is so important, even if you don't realize it in the moment. Looking back, just like you said with, as you've gotten older, understanding the opportunity that was presented when you met the those women lawyers. Yeah. It's amazing growing the gardens of tomorrow today. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yes, exactly. It's so cool. And I always think even if students never become a lawyer, the impact that you can have is profound. And the ripple effect of the generations you impact afterwards are amazing. And there's a quote that I love of, "You plant seeds today so that generations can live in the shade tomorrow." Something like that, the quote, not precisely. But it's so cool that someone years from now can live the benefit because you put on a 40-minute panel. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes. 

Tamara Nash: 

And so it's really so cool and so truly just moving to know that you can change the course of someone's life. And I say that in a way of not like I'm important, but in a way that I've lived it. It has changed my life. And so I know the impact that it can have. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I love that generational element as well. I mean, maybe if a high-schooler comes to the summit and they don't become a lawyer, but maybe their kid does and maybe their kid becomes president because of it and changes the world. You never know. 

Tamara Nash: 

Exactly. 

Rio Peterson: 

You never know. 

Tamara Nash: 

Or someone becomes a court reporter or they go into law enforcement and then the next generation does something. It can just be so cool. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's very, very exciting. And so that's on April 26th. 

Tamara Nash: 

April 26th. 

Rio Peterson: 

At the Houston? 

Tamara Nash: 

South Texas College of Law in Houston. 

Rio Peterson: 

South Texas. Yes, in Houston. Okay. Fantastic. And we'll talk in a minute about how people can get connected with that. 

Tamara Nash: 

Sounds good. 

Rio Peterson: 

So something I want to ask because I think this is really a theme and overarching theme about what we've been talking about is just inspiring youth and creating and opening those opportunities. So what is some advice that you would give your younger self? I know this is a question you like to ask. Well, I'm asking you, Tam. 

Tamara Nash: 

All right. A piece of advice I would give my younger self is to stay rooted in your passion and your dreams and to trust the process and trust the journey. I think we get very convinced that success looks one way and that the path has to be one way. And we get so rigid and so distracted by other people's definition of success that sometimes we lose sight of our own passion, our own dream, and our own wants for our life. And so I would just remind my younger self that it will work out just as it should and that you can define success for yourself. 

Rio Peterson: 

Oh, I love that. I feel like that's going to be the title of this episode. I imagine your family's really proud of you, hey. 

Tamara Nash: 

I hope they are. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's great. I love that. I love that advice. And it is so true. I mean, we definitely get wrapped up in this idea that it has to be a certain thing. But that's the great thing about success in this life is that you really get to decide for yourself what is important and how that looks and where you want to take it. And that's a really powerful thing to know. 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. And I mean, obviously it takes time to learn that, but once you do. 

Tamara Nash: 

It's liberating. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yes, it absolutely is. It's like, "Oh, I don't have to fit in this box. That's really awesome." 

Tamara Nash: 

Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's great advice. So tell us how can people find out about the summit? 

Tamara Nash: 

Yes. So easiest way to find out about the summit is reach out to me directly. You can email me at tamarapnash1@gamil, tamarapnash1@gmail.com. And I would love, love, love to get you connected to get you there and to get you all the information you might need. 

Rio Peterson: 

Perfect. And we will make sure to put that in the show notes so that it's easy to find and everyone can connect with you. And yeah, we're really looking forward to the summit and I think it's going to be a fantastic success. 

Tamara Nash: 

Thank you. We're excited and we are appreciative of your partnership. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. Anytime. We love young lawyers. Yeah, so thank you so much for chatting with me today. This was fantastic. I really enjoyed our conversation. 

Tamara Nash: 

Me too. Thanks for having me. 

Rio Peterson: 

Yeah, absolutely. Anytime. You come back anytime. 

Tamara Nash: 

All right, be careful. 

Rio Peterson: 

This is just going to be our new show. And then they did a spinoff and it was great. 

Tamara Nash: 

And It kept going. 

Rio Peterson: 

Right. Well, thank you everybody for tuning in. We'll talk to you next time. Have a wonderful day. 

 

ALPS In Brief Podcast - Episode 80: Empowering Women in Law - The Girl Attorney

Rio Peterson:

Hello, everybody, and welcome to episode 80 of ALPS's In Brief Podcast. My name is Rio Peterson. I will be your host today. I am the Bar Partnership Strategist at ALPS, and I'm very excited to be here, kind of sharing hosting duties with Mark, who will be joining us on a future episode. But for today, you got me, and you've also got with you and myself with Susan Carns Curtiss. Susan, hi. Welcome.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Hi, Rio. Thank you for having me.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Thank you for joining us. So for those of you who don't know, Susan is not just a lawyer, but also the founder of an incredible group called GIRL ATTORNEY. So today, we're going to sit down and chat with her a little bit about her work as a lawyer and her work with the group. And in honor of Women's History Month, we're going to be exploring all of the incredible opportunities and ways that GIRL ATTORNEY has brought women together. So, Susan, do you want to start by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Sure. So I am an attorney based out of Oklahoma City. I am a personal injury attorney, and I handle cases just within the state of Oklahoma related to when someone's injured as a result of an auto collision. I do a little bit of other things, but mostly, if someone calls me about anything else, I tell them where they can find good representation, not from me. I know what I know and I know what I don't know in plaintiff's personal injury and, specifically, auto neg, auto negligence. So that's really my sweet spot, and that's what I'm focused on. That's what I do.

Rio Peterson:

Sick. And I feel like knowing what you know and knowing what you don't know is kind of a superpower, actually. I don't think a lot of people know what they don't know.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And truly, that's one of the most valuable things I've come to appreciate as an attorney, is the value of practicing in an area where you know what your limits are. So you're never going to know it all. And even if the laws on the books haven't changed, how it's applied, it is evolving. There's new fact situations, and people are always looking for new ways to understand how the law applies today.

So one thing, and we'll get to GIRL ATTORNEY later, but one of the most valuable things that I have gleaned from my years of watching women have conversations there is, yes, I should not dabble in anything else, because as they have conversations about nuances and areas of practice I don't have, I realize more and more, "Yes, good to know. Interesting." And it's just affirmation. My comfort level is to stay in my lane.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

No pun intended.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. And being a specialist is a fantastic thing.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Well, yes, focusing on one area of practice is what works well for me. So I can feel confident. Like I said, even when I don't know, I know what the boundaries are, I know what the questions are, and I know it's not a function of, "I just don't know this area of practice well enough." I never want my client to have their case handled by somebody who really doesn't know.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Right?

Rio Peterson:

Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

That's where you want your clients. So my personal injury clients, if they call me about estates, I say, "I love that you trust me with that. I do not trust me with that. So let me find you someone." That's my point.

Rio Peterson:

Fantastic. I love that. I feel like your clients can really trust you to do what's best for them and serve their best interest.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Hopefully. Hopefully.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

So how long have you been practicing law, Susan?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Since I graduated in '06, December of '06. And so, I took the bar early '07 and got sworn in a couple months later when, thankfully, I passed that sucker first try. So that's how long I've been practicing, and very thankful for that. Yup. It's been a bit.

Rio Peterson:

Awesome. What first drew you to law?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Oh, okay. And actually, we did not talk about this ahead of time, so you don't know, but I love telling the story.

Rio Peterson:

Excellent.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I was a juror. That's why.

Rio Peterson:

Wow, really?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I was a juror on a case in Oklahoma, of course. It was a bad-faith case, which is basically when someone sues their insurance company because they believe the insurance company didn't handle their claim properly, and not just a mistake, like, "They did bad. That's why it's bad faith." All right. So I'm a juror on this case, and it was a week-and-a-half-long trial. I, at the time, was working at a flower shop part-time, thinking about, "Maybe I should start my own business."

I checked out a library book for break time during jury duty on how to open a flower shop. This is kind of where I thought my life was going. And over the course of a week and a half, I thought, "Oh my gosh, this is the best show ever."

Rio Peterson:

That's so cool.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Well, I mean, truly, bad-faith cases, it's insurance. It really shouldn't be interesting, but I was fascinated with all of it. So long story short, at the end of that week-and-a-half-long trial, I reached out to the judge, a woman, because I was relatively new to Oklahoma City, and I didn't know anyone who was an attorney. Well, I didn't know any women who were attorneys. So there was a neighbor, who was a guy, who was an attorney. But anyway, I didn't know anybody. And so, I thought, "Well..." I mean, I was just so young, just such a baby, little baby adult. I was pregnant with my third when I was going through jury duty.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And so, I spoke with the judge and asked her, "Hey, can I take you out for lunch?" And she said, "No, but I can host you for lunch in my office." And so, we had lunch, and she was so, so nice. And I've done a little homework. I found out she was a parent. She had children. I've since met her daughter, and she's a lovely person and all this. But anyway, the point is, I thought, "Well, I guess, clearly, she's a successful woman attorney," even though she's a judge, not an attorney.

But anyway, I didn't understand all that. I mean, I knew she wasn't an attorney, but the point is, I was like, "She's a successful woman with a law degree," because I was thinking, "Maybe I should do this." So I met with her. And then after that, I called her back a month or two later and asked her, "Hey, I'm really still curious about this. Could I make your coffee and sweep your floor so I could see more about what happens in a courtroom?"

And I literally did that, and she was like, "Yeah. So I already have people that do that, but you are welcome to come in anytime." So I did. Over the next year, she was so kind. She let me come and watch. We'd sit and talk about things after they happened out in the courtroom. I mean, it was nothing that was even on the other side. I know she didn't cross anything since she wasn't supposed to.

But she would let me hash out my questions about, "Why did it look this way?" or "Why did they handle it this way? Why didn't they do this?" and then her two cents on it. It was just a really amazing experience. She actually also would let me read the briefs that had been submitted to her. Again, all public record, but it was a unique experience. She'd say, "Why don't you go read this stuff and let me know your thoughts on how you think I should rule?"

I know nothing. I was like 0% helpful to her. She was just being nice to me. But it did really get me interested in being a lawyer and being a litigator, and grew my appreciation and my understanding beyond that of being a juror, because that was clearly a front-row seat to what litigators do, but getting to have a better feel of what happens up until and what might potentially even help resolve a case without a trial.

Anyway, so yeah, a year and a half later, I was on a jury in June of '02, again, pregnant with James, my youngest. And then in the fall of '03, when my son was nine months old, I started law school. So I had three kids. And yeah, it was incredible.

Rio Peterson:

That's so cool. That's so cool. And really, kudos to the judge. Sorry, what was her name?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I didn't say. Her name is Nancy, Nancy Coats.

Rio Peterson:

Nancy? Yeah. Well, kudos to Nancy for really nurturing your curiosity and providing that vehicle for you, really, that ability for you to explore and dive deeper into that. That's a really incredible story. Have you kept in touch with Nancy at all?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Oh, yes.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I'm the president of her fan club. Wait, she doesn't really have a fan club. But yes, we absolutely have, and it's so sweet. In fact, she just got honored a few months ago, and she invited me to sit at her table. Right? I was her guest at this thing.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, that's wonderful.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So that is the long story short as to our relationship.

Rio Peterson:

Gorgeous.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Absolutely. She has maintained a relationship with me and invested in me, and she tells me all the time how proud she is of me.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, wonderful.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And it's funny. And actually too, another fun, crazy thing about this: The defendant in that bad-faith lawsuit, we found in favor of the plaintiff as against the defendant. The defendant was Mid-Century Insurance Company, which is a subsidiary. I may not be using the right word. But basically, they're under, and also, they are a Farmers Insurance company.

Rio Peterson:

Got it.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

When I graduated law school, my first litigation job was with Farmers Insurance.

Rio Peterson:

Was it with Farmers?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

That's great. What a small world.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Oh, yeah. So small. My eventual boss, I mean, technically, he was a colleague. He wasn't really my boss. But he had decades of experience on me, and we both worked at Farmers. He was my boss in my mind. He was on the stand for four or six hours of this trial.

Rio Peterson:

That's incredible.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Crazy. And they did know. They did know. Yeah. But they still hired me. And we entered a verdict against Farmers for, I think it was 2.1 million.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Anyway, at any rate, it wasn't like chump change. It was real dinero. Anyway, but yeah, that's crazy. It is crazy, but it is true. That is how I ended up in law school. I just was a fascinated juror, and did homework that just made sense to me. At one point, Judge Coats said to me... I don't remember now if it was weeks or months or years into it, but she, at one point, said to me... And this did stick out. She said, "It took a lot of guts to reach out to a judge."

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, if someone would've told me it takes guts to do this, I would not have done it." It just made sense to me. I was just like, "Who else am I going to ask? I don't know any women attorneys. This is the one woman attorney I've ever been exposed to in this city or state. I might as well ask her."

Rio Peterson:

Did you?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So, yes-

Rio Peterson:

It seems like she would know.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

... I had no idea. I just was a desperate person for information, and she was nice enough to respond. So yeah, it is kind of funny how, looking back, I accidentally did things just by following my nose that led me to the right place to be at the right time. Yeah.

Rio Peterson:

Wow, that's such an incredible-

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I'm very thankful.

Rio Peterson:

... origin story. I really love that you reached out and that she received, and here you are. It's really incredible. And I think that that's also a really good, possibly, segue into how you came to found GIRL ATTORNEY, because I think there's a lot of parallels with women lifting each other up and helping each other kind of get further and move forward. So tell me a little bit about how GIRL ATTORNEY came to be.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So I worked at Farmers for a few years, and I had a great experience. My colleagues were great. The company was good to work for. Our clients as lawyers were the insureds. And I was in an office where it was very clear, my loyalty was to my client, not the person who paid my check, because you can see how that could be an issue. And all I can say about the office I was in was, is there was never a question. Never. Your loyalty, your obligation is to our insured, not to Farmers.

And it's rare anything came up, but I never felt like there was a pushback when there was something. Anyway, so great experience, but I was 13... 12 or 13. I can't remember. I think it was 12, maybe it was 13, jury trials, three-and-a-half years into doing the work with Farmers, and I started to feel a tension about whether or not I have been given this opportunity to go to law school to save an insurance company money.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Again, I worked with great people. You need to have good, nice people on both sides that will advocate hard for their clients. So I always took a lot of pride in the work I did, but I would often get verdicts for zero for the plaintiff, or very little for the plaintiff, which, by the way, my clients loved, the adjusters loved, Farmers loved. I was not loving myself as much as each trial went on. I thought, "Oh." I mean, you win one, two, three, or four, and you're like, I was anyway, "I'm a killer. I am so good at this. Oh, I'm a boss. People love me."

Okay. But eventually, this is happening over and over and over and over, and I thought, "I mean, I know I'm just doing my job. I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I'm just trying to get the impression that the system is slanted in favor of my position on the civil side." And that was my experience. That is not always the case, but it just ended up being my experience.

And so, I was this many. I was at least a dozen trials in, and I had gotten one verdict total. It was my second trial, where a verdict was more than our last offer. But everything else was a zero or it was less than our offer. And so, it's a win. I mean, that's how they calculate a win. So even if it's a plaintiff's verdict, if it's real low, then... If it's lower than our last offer, it's a win.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So I started feeling like this wasn't the long-term career for me, because I wanted to be able to go and fight hard on behalf of my client, respectfully, but hard and focused. And if I somehow accomplished more than maybe I meant to, I could still be excited. Right? Instead, I was like, "Oh, man. I zeroed him out again." Like, "Thank you. Thank you. Adjusters love me." But I just wasn't enjoying it, because I thought, "Some of these people really should be getting something, and they should be getting more."

And so, it was around that time, a lawyer from the other side reached out and asked if I would be willing to switch to the plaintiffs' side. So long story short, I ended up doing plaintiffs' work, and that's when I came to find out or more clearly understand that there are so few women that do plaintiffs' personal injury work.

Rio Peterson:

Oh.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I mean, even my own experience, every jury trial I had was against a guy.

Rio Peterson:

Ooh, interesting.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

There are very few women that do plaintiffs' personal injury work. So it was going to trial lawyer conferences and having... Occasionally, I did. I had bad experiences, and somehow connected to the fact of being a woman among... three women among 100 men at a conference. Right? So sometimes bad things happened, but really no worse than what anybody experiences out there as a woman in a profession, period.

Rio Peterson:

Being a woman in the world is-

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It happens.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And not in a passive way, but just to say there's just like... That was the norm. That's a baseline. But also, I would have people just being polite, saying, "Oh, so whose wife are you?"

Rio Peterson:

Oh, yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Right? They're not even trying to be a jerk.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

But I was constantly expressing to people that, in one way or the other, "Oh, I actually belong here. Oh, so anyway, funny story, I'm one of you. I hear you. I don't have that bonus body part, but this is news to you. This is not a reason to assume I'm here as a spouse." Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. "I assure you that I can be here."

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But all that to say too, these are people who are not trying to be ugly. They were trying to be polite to somebody's spouse. But it's just these culture norms, and living and then now working in a very male-dominated space is what led me to look for a space online. I literally looked for it in the back of a room at one of those conferences. I was like, "Now I'm getting on my laptop looking for something. There's got to be something out there."

And, of course, there's women's bar associations, and they are awesome, and there are organizations for networking for women professionals in general. But I couldn't find something across the US that was a community for women attorneys. And maybe it existed, but I couldn't find it. So anyway, that is really the shortest version of the GIRL ATTORNEY origin story. I was looking for a place, and then I created a space where women attorneys could be a part of it, and no one would say, "Yeah. I'm sorry, do you belong here?"

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Yeah. "Is your husband coming to the meeting? Should we wait for him?"

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. "Who's endorsing you today? Who's sponsoring you?"

Rio Peterson:

"Who vetted you?"

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes. But that led to me starting a Facebook group, and this was in 2016. I really did, at that point, only imagine... No, it's '14. Anyway, whenever it was. Whenever I started it, I imagined... It was on Facebook, and it was before a lot of law firms even had Facebook business pages.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I imagine today, I say it's kind of like people who have... TikTok feels like, "Well, that's for younger people." I can say that because an old person. And kudos to all the people who are in their 50s and older, and they are rock stars on TikTok. I'm like... But it feels foreign to me, right?

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And so, when I created this group on Facebook, I imagined it would be a social space. I never imagined what it became. And that's really a sweet testament to what the community is, which is, it's very organic. It's what the women bring to the group, which allows other women to receive from the group. But yeah, it started as just a social... I added, I think it was just under 50 people.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

"Hi, everyone. You're all my Facebook friends who are lawyers. I know all of you." I literally did this. "I know all of you, but you don't necessarily know each other. So I'm just thinking, if you want, you can introduce yourself, and you're welcome to invite other women." And that's how it started. So that was 50-something women.

And then about a week later, there were 1,000 women in the group. And then within a few weeks, people started asking practice questions. Kind of like if you walked down the hall and you asked the lawyer at the other end of the hall, "Hey, how would you file this?" or "Have you ever filed one of these? Do you have a template or a go-by that I could look at?" Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

People started asking those questions. And sorry, I'm going on a little bit.

Rio Peterson:

You're great.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

But anyway, so that... Okay. And people were saying, "Hey, I woke up at 3:00 AM with a sick kid. I've got a docket in such and such county." There's a call. Their docket call... "Is anyone possibly going to be there already who can answer for my case and let them know XYZ?" And otherwise, total strangers were saying, "Yeah. I'm going to be there. Happy to help." Right?

Rio Peterson:

Wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I know, right?

Rio Peterson:

Like a very organic process.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yup.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

That led to somebody saying, "Hey, can we get a separate group for just our state?" And I think that was Texas. And so, I started a Texas group. And then, of course, I'm based out of Oklahoma, so most of the women were in Oklahoma. I started a separate Oklahoma group. But that original group is the one that we call GIRL ATTORNEY - NATIONAL now. And so, that's just because sometimes things are federal questions or it's something that you really just...

I encourage people, if they're going to join a state group, to also join the national group, because sometimes people will ask a question, "Oh, I'm looking for an attorney in Tennessee," because they think, "Oh, I don't need to join the Tennessee group." They don't need to join the Tennessee group. But if they do, they're going to get 30 people answer their question, as far as if they need a referral, or if they need a question, they asked.

In the national group, though, it does give sort of a clearinghouse for just addressing whomever, because it's not a state-specific question, or you're just asking, "Hey, does anyone know anyone in this other state?" that they'd recommend, or raise your own hand. So that's how it happened. And now, just recently, just within the last week, we confirmed we're over 37,000-women strong.

Rio Peterson:

That's incredible, because I think when we talked a couple weeks ago, it was like 34-

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Close.

Rio Peterson:

... or it wasn't too long.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

36.

Rio Peterson:

34.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It was 36.

Rio Peterson:

But still, it's incredible. I mean, it started with just 50 people being like, "Hey, you guys, maybe we could chat." And now you have 37,000 members, and you have chapters in, what, all 50 states, I believe. Isn't it?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Okay.

Rio Peterson:

Oh my God.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I have a group for every state on Facebook. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the Vermont group. Okay?

Rio Peterson:

Well, come on, everybody. Anyone listening from Vermont, let's go.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. And it really is interesting. It just happens organically. What typically happens for a group to hit the ground running, all the groups have existed now for a few years, but for a group to just take off, it usually... And this is by observation. I've never asked anybody to do this, but this is what happens. One person in a state decides to do what I did with the first group. They add not one or two people, but they literally invite 50 friends, and they're like, "Hey, ladies, this is a space we can use."

Rio Peterson:

Right. Oh, that's interesting.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

"Introduce yourself to each other." And whenever that has happened, it has just taken off from there, and it's just sweet. And there are some states... Let me give a good example. Ah, golly. Well, I won't name names, but there are some states where I swear all the people who are in the group are people who went there to say, "Hey, I'm looking to refer a case to someone in the state for a family law issue." And no one's there to answer their question. Right?

And so, now we've got five or six or eight people in certain state groups where the only people in the group are people who are like, "I would like to hire a lawyer here." But there's no one in the state who's been added or found their way there yet. So it is interesting. I feel no urgency. Technically, it is GIRL ATTORNEY, LLC, but I don't charge for membership. It's more or less run in terms of the members as a nonprofit.

Rio Peterson:

Right. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Now, I'm not speaking as someone who does nonprofit law, so don't misunderstand that as like a legal term. I'm just saying there's no membership fees. There are no boards. I think the value is not creating yet another organization to ask for your time or money. Right? Nobody needs that. There are ample nonprofits. There are wonderful, professional, your bar associations, whether it's the state bar for everybody or a women's bar, or the plaintiffs' bar, the defense bar.

All those organizations already exist and provide great opportunities for leadership, education, and I like to add to that. I like to support what the bar associations are doing. I try to follow as many as I can on social media. I repost their events into the groups. But we're here to support women helping women. That's what I do. The no-fee is also partly based on my desire to create a space where, whether someone has had their law school paid for, they have no debt, and maybe they're going straight into big law. I mean, good for you, girl. Go get it. That gal's got plenty of extra dinero. And if I charged whatever a year that she thought it was worth, she can and hopefully would pay it. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

But there's also women who've graduated with a mile-high pile of debt and who are in public service work. And guess what? If I charged $5 a year, I mean, is it worth it? Yes. It would absolutely be worth the $5, but it would also be a reason somebody said no, because they're like, "That is technically not necessary, so I'm not going to pay it." And I want everybody to be in there regardless of their economic situation and also regardless of their connections in the legal profession, because many women come from legal families, and there are plenty of women who do not.

And they don't have the connections. They don't know who's who in their state, in their city, and the GIRL ATTORNEY community helps provide access to them. There are partners in law firms in the very same Facebook group as the brand-new associate. I love that. And when I see partner so-and-so post a meme, and her associate gets to laugh at it with her, I'm like, "That's kind of like passing the woman in the hallway and giving her a high five."

Rio Peterson:

Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Who gets to do that? Law firms can be very not chill.

Rio Peterson:

Right. Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So this creates a space where they can help each other. Also, this associate gets to contribute to questions, pick up cases, and it's potentially an opportunity for that partner to see this gal going and getting it done. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So it's just a way to facilitate connection and, hopefully, elevate women in the profession, which helps elevate the woman in her community, which helps her help her own family, and make a difference... Well, I guess I sort of did that backwards. I mean, really, ultimately, I want her to be helped individually, professionally, and also, it impacts her ability to help her community, and it helps everybody.

Rio Peterson:

Absolutely. And something I really, really love about this and about the GIRL ATTORNEY community is that success and opportunity is not a zero-sum game. There's enough for everybody.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

And I really feel that just how GIRL ATTORNEY has evolved and grown is really testament to the fact that there was a major need for a community where women feel equal, where they feel seen, where they don't feel embarrassed about asking a question, or where they have opportunities to connect with each other on an equal footing, is really incredible. And I'm so excited. I'm so excited that it just keeps growing, and that women keep connecting, and that it keeps just building. It's fantastic. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I'm thankful.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. I mean, I hope we all are, because it's great.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yeah.

Rio Peterson:

And so, I know we've got just a few more minutes left here, but I did want to talk about some of the people and experiences you've had through GIRL ATTORNEY and through building this. Now, I know that you put on a conference just before the great pandemic.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yes.

Rio Peterson:

And so, I know you've gotten to connect with some pretty incredible people. Can you tell me maybe who was someone that really stood out to you or a moment that really made you feel like, "This is a really good thing that I'm doing and building"?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Okay. I've got two answers to that question. One, I have to give explicit props, express my admiration and appreciation for the role that Judge Coats had in facilitating the conversation, which led to the opportunity. Right? So that was, for sure, a difference maker for me. I have no idea if she would've not been willing to make time in her schedule to meet with me. Maybe I would've never taken those next steps.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And then, otherwise, I can say broadly just the fact that I get to see all these women helping each other, and making each other laugh and encouraging each other. So without singling any one person out, just to say, that has really made an impression on me. Okay. I have a theory. I'll try to be as quick as possible.

Rio Peterson:

Okay. I'm ready.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So we have heard for years that women are hardest on women. And I will tell you, one time, we had a situation in Oklahoma. It was a few years ago, and it's a good story. But the point is, on the other side of... They had the teacher walkouts. There were a ton of teacher walkouts in maybe '17, '18, I can't remember which year, across the US.

And in Oklahoma, we had... There was a woman in the GIRL ATTORNEY Oklahoma group who said, "Hey, who wants to go down and support the teachers?" I'm thinking, "We'll go down on Friday, if anyone's interested." Well, a whole bunch of people were like, "Yeah." Long story short, yes. A lot of people said yes. And this lawyer then posted on her social media, something like, "We're going to be there, legislators. You're on notice, and you'll know us when you see us. We'll be the women in black."

And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I just love that." Assertive, right? But she just threw the gauntlet down. Funny story. Then she goes to take a shower, and her husband's knocking on the door of the bathroom. He's like, "Did you post something on our social media page?" Because the post blew up. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So we ended up having about... Gosh, I don't want to exaggerate. Well, we had hundreds, maybe a couple hundred, I can't remember now, women from all over the state that showed up. And by the way, men who covered their dockets so that they could be there that Friday. Right? Super sweet. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Wonderful.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So we show up, and this all was facilitated. It was not the group that organized it. It was a woman in the group who asked, "Hey, anybody else want to do something about this?" Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And people were like, "Yeah." So this question was asked on a Thursday. By Sunday, we're being interviewed by CBS Nightly News.

Rio Peterson:

What?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I know. It was insane.

Rio Peterson:

Incredible. That's incredible.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It was insane. Women on Sunday night were like, "Hey, should we have tables out there to pass out things to teachers tomorrow morning?" And by Monday morning, at 5:30 in the morning, there were three tables donated, brought, and set up. Someone had a tent. We had cookies to pass out. We had gas gift cards to pass out. And here's the thing: No one was in charge of this. It was women going, "Well, I could do this. I'm going to go do that."

Rio Peterson:

Wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It didn't need to be cleared through anybody. It wasn't like we're looking for volunteers to do. It was just women thinking, "Here's the situation. I could contribute this way." One person thought to call the bar association and ask, because it's right next to the Capitol, if we could organize there, and they said, "Oh, yes. You can come and organize, but don't park in our parking lot." Okay. It didn't even occur to me.

So we all show up, because, again, I'm not in charge. But in the end, we were a visible group in support of the teachers. Laws don't change because a bunch of people show up on one day. It's just not the way it works, unfortunately. But we were able to show up in force. We get there. I get word that there's a local high school band that heard we were going to be marching from the bar association to the Capitol and wanted to lead us in.

Rio Peterson:

I love this.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I was literally in that moment when they were like, "They're all here." I'm looking over, and there's literally... It's the Norman High School Band. And I think there's two bands here, so I don't remember which one. But anyway, they're there, and I am like, "Oh." I'm like, "No, no, no," because I'm not like the, "You'll see us, the women in black." Right? Someone else said that. I did show up in black, but I also was just stressed. Right?

I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, it's not about us." And even in that moment, they're like, "Oh, we're here to do this." And I was like, "No." I started to say no, and I thought, "No, but it isn't about you. It's about the teachers, and it's about this band. They also want to participate. We all want to be here and show our visible support for these people."

Okay. On the other side of that, this is getting to my point, I heard more than one person say, "See? Look what happens when women help women." And I couldn't help but think, Rio, I don't think any one of those women were pushing down their natural inner bitch.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Believe me if you need to.

Rio Peterson:

No.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

But I do not think that anyone was not being themselves.

Rio Peterson:

Wow.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I thought, "Wait a minute. What if that narrative is, 'I understand. There's competitive people in the world who are very unpleasant. They are both male and female'?"

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I think based on what I observed, because I was like, "Wait, wait, wait," this is incredible. All these women, nobody was asked to do anything, but they all were now operating in a space where clearly what they wanted to contribute was going to be received. And look what happens when you create a space where women get to lead.

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

They get to follow their own lead, their heart, their mind, use their experience, their access, their connections. Guess what happens? A really wonderful, beautiful thing. When we came around the corner, the band, the teachers cheered. They felt loved. They were literally crying. We're crying, they're crying. It was a powerful thing. And all of it happened because there was a space where women got to trust themselves and do what was next. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So I was like, "Oh my gosh, this really makes me wonder. This whole narrative of women who are attacking women, who created that narrative?" It would've been, in my opinion, the dominant society, quote, unquote, "society," of whatever fill-in-the-blank business culture that now, a few decades ago, not that many decades ago, maybe five decades ago, started allowing a woman. Oh, now we have two women. It must've been quite the spectacle, right?

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And whether you're the first or the second woman, you're not the majority. And the people who are observing are telling the story of what's going on, and they basically pit these two people against each other-

Rio Peterson:

Yup. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

... or maybe there's three, or maybe there's four. And I have a suspicion, with zero data to back it up, that this whole narrative of women are fighting women is because they were pit against each other, but not because women fight women.

Rio Peterson:

Right. Right. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

What do women do? Look at the bathroom in the bar. That's what women are, right?

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

They're like, "Girl, you got this. He is not good enough for you."

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

That's who we are.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And I'm not saying that men can't support each other. It's not a contrast. It's not a zero-sum game. Right? Like some people, "We're the gender who's nice to people." Not that. I'm just saying, this narrative is wrong.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I saw it in this microcosm from Thursday to Monday. I was like, "What even just happened? What just happened?" And then in the years since, I just get to see it every day in the community.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It's the most delightful, amazing, kind of sacred thing. And I just hope I don't screw it up. That's really my goal. That, and I don't want to get hit by a bus and not have a succession plan. That's my other big problem right now.

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I'm like, "Oh, I don't really have a structure. I oversee this space, and what happens if something happens to me?" I really got to get that in order. Right? But anyway, that's what we do. That's what it does.

Rio Peterson:

It's incredible. It's incredible.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

It's women helping women.

Rio Peterson:

It really seems to me too, to your point, about competition between women. What better way to keep women from succeeding than to pit them against each other?

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Absolutely.

Rio Peterson:

It's the thinking that they have to compete with each other for a seat at the table, when in reality, we need to just maybe make that table bigger, and then that makes room for everyone.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And, of course, we're talking about GIRL ATTORNEY, and it's about women, and it's Women's History Month. It also was just Black History Month.

Rio Peterson:

Yes.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And, of course, there's all sorts of faces where, similarly, if you're not the dominant culture, you are pit against each other.

Rio Peterson:

Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yup. Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So I don't want to equate like, "Oh, because I am a woman, it's kind of like being a Black person." No, no, no, no, no, no. No. I do not have that same experience. But I would be remiss to say, "Hey, women are really left out. Women have been pit against each other," without saying, "Hey, look, that is a thing." And then if you also are not a white woman, which, if people are listening to this and not watching it, I'll tell you, I'm a white woman.

Rio Peterson:

Absolutely.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And so, I have only that. But that's another reason why access is so important to me in the groups, because I think it's important that the space invite everyone in, because if you're not white and you're a lawyer, male or female, you're a minority in the space.

Rio Peterson:

Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

You are.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Right? And then there's sexual orientation. There's so many ways that you can be basically pit against other people and made to feel that you're not a full member. You're not a full member.

Rio Peterson:

Right. Right.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So this all started because of my experience just being a woman. But the more I learn about the experience I have had and what I feel, the more strongly I feel about broadening that welcoming experience to anyone who has been made to feel that they don't... "Oh, wait. Why are you here?" That they aren't actually a full member, just because they don't look like the dominant. So first, we've got white men, and then we've got white people. Right?

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And it goes out from there. But it's so important to me that the group be a welcoming place for everybody, and everybody has access to everyone.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Level playing field.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. It's really inspiring, Susan. Really, this has been such an incredible conversation. I had no idea about supporting the teachers, and just the depths that this community has, I guess, explored and is starting to explore, and how open it is to anyone, regardless of experience, background, where you came from, what color you are, sexual orientation, anything. We need more of that in this world. And so, it's really fantastic that you're creating that, and I think that's a pretty incredible thing.

And not only that, but making space for it. Not just to be the thing that you started, but to be something that all women have a hand, all members, and everyone who's part of it has a hand in building and crafting and making their own. That is a really special thing, to be able to make space for others to claim it as their own as well.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

I hope so.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, I'm going to get weepy. I'm getting weepy. It means a lot. It really does. It means a lot. So I know we've run over time. I think we could probably just talk about this forever. But maybe let's wrap up with, can you just quickly tell everybody where they can go to join GIRL ATTORNEY, and how they can find out more? Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

So all of the groups are... There's two things. There's a website, girlattorney.com. Also, if you go to boyattorney.com, it goes to girlattorney.com.

Rio Peterson:

Wonderful.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

LOL. But anyway, and from that site, it will tell you how... It tells you more. Alternatively, and there is a directory that you can register for on the group, on the website, and that gets you on the newsletter, stuff like that. But alternatively, if you do have to be on Facebook, so you got to deal with Mr. Zuckerberg-

Rio Peterson:

On the book of faces. Yeah.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Yeah. Yeah. If you can get past that hurdle, and you are on Facebook, then the fastest and easiest way to get to any of the groups is to go to the GIRL ATTORNEY, LLC Facebook business page.

Rio Peterson:

Okay.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

On that page, there's a tab somewhere that says, "Groups." You may need to go to the one that says, "Other." And under Other, you'll find groups. But from the business page, there's a tab that says, "Groups." And under the groups, every single one of the groups is listed with a button there, the Facebook button, where you click to join. You'll need to answer a few questions. And once you have answered those questions, I'll get alerted, and I admit you.

And then from there, you can request to join any other group. And it's basically automatic because of the way Facebook has set it up, that once you've been admitted, cleared for one GIRL ATTORNEY group, you're automatically approved to any other. It's usually, you just request and you click Refresh after being admitted to the first. So that's it.

Rio Peterson:

Perfect.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

And then you can help, be helped-

Rio Peterson:

Fantastic.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

... et cetera, et cetera.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, wonderful. Oh, that's so fantastic. Well, this has been great, Susan. Thank you-

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Thank you so much for your time.

Rio Peterson:

Yeah. Thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing and telling us about this really exciting kind of group that you built and just grown. Yeah. And I hope many more people join, and it just continues to grow and create space for everyone.

Susan Carns Curtiss:

Me too. Me too. Thank you so much again. Really, it's an honor. I appreciate you so much.

Rio Peterson:

Oh, thank you. I appreciate you too, Susan. All right, everybody. Well, join us next month or next week. I guess we'll see. We've got a couple new podcast episodes coming out pretty soon here. But otherwise, have a fantastic day, and we will see you... Well, you'll hear us soon.

 

ALPS In Brief Podcast - Episode 79: Exploring Careers in Insurance: Insights from ALPS HR Experts

In this episode of ALPS In Brief, our Bar Partnership Strategist Rio Peterson sits down with Liesel Brink and Amber Kuhlman from the ALPS HR team to talk about careers in Insurance. Learn about their path into HR and learn about all the exciting opportunities that exist in this often overlooked industry.

 

Transcript: 

Rio Peterson: Hello, everybody, and welcome to this month's installment of In Brief. This is episode 79, and I am your host for the first time ever, Rio Peterson. I'll be joining you, hopefully more frequently in a rotation on the podcast, and very much looking forward to it. So this month is Insurance Careers Month, and so we thought it would be really, really appropriate to speak to the two people here at ALPS, who really make sure that people can have careers at ALPS and bring us new talent, and really keep the lights on and run all the things. So I'm going to be talking to Liesel Brink and Amber Kuhlman. Kuhlman. 

Sorry, Amber. So Liesel, do you want to start by introducing yourself, telling us a bit about who you are, what you do here at ALPS? 

Liesel Brink: Sure. Thanks so much, Rio. This is an exciting opportunity. So I am your manager of HR and payroll coordinator here at ALPS Insurance. Do everything from hiring, recruiting, all the way to payroll. 

Not to take any of this under from Amber, I can't do it all on my own. I've been with ALPS for, it's going on nine years, and yeah, been a great time so far. 

Rio Peterson: Awesome. How about you, Amber? Tell us a little bit about yourself. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. So I'm Amber. I'm the HR generalist here at ALPS Insurance. I've been here a little about year and a half now, but in my role, I focus more on the onboarding, recruiting side of things, but I also participate and help out all things wellness with our employees, so that's great. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, that's right. You kind of run things on our Employee Wellness program, which I will speak from experience, is an incredible program and definitely a major perk of working here. So thank you both for all your work and for putting that together for us. It's really fantastic. So we're kind of taking some time to explore careers in insurance this month. 

I don't think necessarily, an industry that a lot of people wake up when they're like five or six, and they're like, "Ah, I want to work in insurance," but so I think it's really important that we can take some time and kind of explore what we do and all of the incredible kind of opportunities and possibilities that exist when you do choose to pursue a career in insurance. So I'm really curious to find out kind of from both of you like, "What was your life before ALPS? What did you do? What was your world before that?" 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah, I can start off. It definitely wasn't insurance. This is my first job in insurance, but prior to coming onto ALPS, I actually came from retail sales, so very different. It's a great learning opportunity, working with individuals, helping them find what they need, but definitely enjoy the insurance side a lot more. Love the stability within insurance. 

Everyone needs it for a variety of things, whether it's car insurance or attorney's liability. So I love that aspect, and we have a lot of opportunities at ALPS as far as diversity within our department. So there's Liesel, myself and HR, but there's also business development folks in sales. We have our claims attorneys, account management, maintaining our policies, and everything else you may need from finance all the way to the C-suite, so it's great. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. Fantastic. And Liesel, what about you? Where were you at before you found your way to ALPS? 

Liesel Brink: So before ALPS ... I mean, how much time do we have, Rio? 

Rio Peterson: We've got a couple minutes. 

Liesel Brink: Yeah. So I've been doing HR for about 25 years, and in the last, ooh, 12 mostly in HR, previous to that, nonprofit work, and many people know in a nonprofit, you become a jack-of-all-trades, right? 

Rio Peterson: Absolutely. 

Liesel Brink: You do a little bit here, do a little bit there, and that's where I started in human resources, HR, people operations. So for me, what really resonated were employee benefits, and so being able to talk with individuals about what truly they get with the benefit and having that understanding come to light is what fulfills me the most in my role. I not only worked in a nonprofit, but I too did some retail, but it wasn't retail-retail, it was concessions, some more food. Sorry about that, Amber. That was a really long stint. 

And then, I also worked for a third-party administrator, which is insurance adjacent, and then from there, came to ALPS Insurance. I did do three years as a paralegal assistant. Learned a lot. Not sure I'd go back, but who knows? Someday, maybe. 

Rio Peterson: You never know. You never know. 

Liesel Brink: Exactly, exactly. But yeah, that's kind of my journey in the insurance world, mainly having the most excitement and fulfillment from the employee benefits side. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, got it. Fantastic. So how did you two find your way to ALPS? Was it sort of like serendipitous? Did you seek it out? 

Yeah, I'd love to hear. Maybe Liesel, we'll start with you. 

Liesel Brink: Yeah, sure. So I was actually headed back to the university for a degree in computer science, and I received a phone call from an acquaintance at a local company, and they shared with me, "Would I be interested in considering?" And at the time, ALPS wasn't sure what they were going to fill this position as. They needed a payroll person, and so I decided, "You know, I'll have that conversation with Chris Newbold," the Chief Operations Officer. "I'll just talk to him, and nothing's going to come of it." 

And then, four interviews later, I was made an offer and decided, "Hey, why not try payroll?" And then, because of the previous experience, grew into the HR role. 

Rio Peterson: Oh, fantastic. Fantastic. And Amber, what about you? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. So I kind of go back to the university as well, with my connection with ALPS. I took a human resources course, in which required you to network with a human resource professional. 

Rio Peterson: I love it. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I got connected with Liesel for a group project, and then we worked on that together, and then I was interested in being an intern, because then, I was very interested in HR after that class and everything. So then I did a summer internship, and then Liesel realized, "Oh my gosh, this girl's so much help." 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Amber Kuhlman: So then, she was like, "I need someone full-time." So then, she posted an opening for a full-time role, and then now, here we are, so yeah. 

Rio Peterson: Fantastic. So you both dazzled each other, and you were like, "This needs to continue. This is an excellent partnership." 

Liesel Brink: Definitely. 

Rio Peterson: That's fantastic. That's fantastic. So it sounds like we have a pretty good connection with the university. And I understand you two also just did some kind of speaking yesterday. You spoke with the HR Program, is that right? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. Is that something we do quite a lot of? Is ALPS pretty involved in working with the university and connecting with students? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I know Liesel has presented before. That was my first time presenting to a management course. However, we do often go to their career expos, so when we are hiring and recruiting, it's a great way to network with local folks and get connected with them, so it's great. 

Rio Peterson: Got it. Fantastic. So let's maybe shift a little bit and talk about kind of ALPS in general. What are some different career paths that somebody could explore at ALPS? I know we've got quite a lot of things. 

I know, Amber, you touched on them a little bit before. Maybe we can dig a little bit deeper into that. 

Liesel Brink: Definitely. Amber, jump in when I'm off track. So for individuals within ALPS, when they come in and they've learned their job that they were hired into, we always encourage individuals to learn more about different departments, and we encourage them to do continuing education. If it's a department that they were hired into that doesn't require licensure, we encourage them to consider that. We encourage them to do continuing educations, whether it's a CPCU or an IEM, or any of the credentials that you can get in the insurance industry, we encourage them to do continuing education. 

So when a position in another department might open, they can be considered, if it's something that truly interests them that they want to try out. We start individuals, a lot of times, in our lead generation specialist roles, and then from there, they learn a lot about marketing, and sales, and account management, and the insurance, like how insurance actually works in the lingo and the terminology. So it's a fantastic place for individuals to start, and we usually implement an interim program within that lead generation specialist role to get people considering like, "Could insurance be for me?" That is, to be honest, your opportunities are only limited by what you put on yourself. I know that's cliche. Sorry to be cliche, but- 

Rio Peterson: I love it. I love it. 

Liesel Brink: It's one of those things where truly, if you were in sales and you were interested in underwriting, we would love for you to pursue what that might look like. 

Rio Peterson: Right. 

Liesel Brink: We do not put limits on individuals. In fact, we encourage individuals to become more involved in improvements that we're making within our product, and then also, just be more helpful to individuals in different roles, cross-education, which is super helpful. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, fantastic. And then, I'm kind of wondering, so lead gen, that's obviously part of our sales team, right? And so what I'm hearing is that's a really good place for someone to start. If they don't know anything maybe about insurance, they don't really ... Maybe they're fresh at a university, maybe they're just trying to figure things out. That's a good place for them to start, and to kind of get a broader overview of the rest of the functions of the company. 

Liesel Brink: Definitely. The lead generation specialist role, our client processing specialist role, that's an administration position. And not to change the topic, Rio, and I know we'll come back to this, but what I appreciate most about the insurance industry is that you can learn it on the job while doing it. 

Rio Peterson: Yes. 

Liesel Brink: You don't need a college degree. College degrees are great, but you don't need a college degree to be successful in the insurance industry. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: That is the biggest takeaway I try to leave with individuals that I talk with. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, that is absolutely fantastic. It's really good to know that as well, because I think that's something that can really intimidate a lot of folks like, "Maybe I don't have the right education, the right credentials," so it seems very accessible industry to get into. I know for myself, I mean, coming from the tech industry, I did not know anything about insurance, and let me tell you, I have learned all the things, and that is, I can definitely attest to what you just said, I have learned them all on the fly as well. So that's really important, I think, for people to keep in mind is that you can be taught. You can learn it and go forth and achieve big things. 

Liesel Brink: Definitely. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: And if I may, I would share that it's not always easy to break into the insurance industry, however, if you align the skill sets that you already have with the skill sets that are necessary within the insurance industry, such as detail-orientedness, follow-through, dedication to the job at hand, if you align the skill set that you currently have with those needs, you can get into the insurance industry. 

Rio Peterson: Got it. What would be some kind of obstacles or some things that would make it difficult for somebody to break into the industry, is maybe not knowing anyone who's already in the industry, just kind of not having any knowledge of it? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah, I- 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I would say not having the knowledge. I don't think, especially coming from the university, they don't really say push insurance or mention it, really, as a career path. That would be a good one. So I would think the biggest obstacle would, for sure be just not knowing it's out there and kind of where you can go from there, for sure. 

Rio Peterson: And it's kind of surprising to me that they don't push that or even recommend it, because to me, insurance is pretty good industry. It's pretty fail-safe, like recession-proof when times are tough, everybody gets insurance. Everyone needs insurance, like it's really- 

Amber Kuhlman: I think there's a misconception with insurance, that it's all sales. 

Rio Peterson: Yes. 

Amber Kuhlman: So that's another one, I mean, but realizing there's office positions as well, like what Liesel and I do, HR within insurance, or finance, or marketing. 

Rio Peterson: Right. 

Amber Kuhlman: It's all needed, so yeah. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, claims, we hire lots of attorneys as well, and so yeah, there's lots of different options out there, absolutely. So what would you suggest maybe for someone who was looking to get into insurance, like say they were like, "That's the thing I want to do. I want to find out. I want to break into that industry." 

What would be a good way? I know, Liesel, you mentioned kind of aligning the skill set you already have. Would you recommend maybe reaching out to recruiters or HR staff such as yourself, people, operations, et cetera? 

Liesel Brink: So that's a great question, because different individuals, like the hiring teams, different companies think of things differently. 

Rio Peterson: Right. 

Liesel Brink: For me, I would be happy for anyone to connect with me on LinkedIn. That is a fantastic way to start your network. You can connect with one individual, and then from there, you actually can learn more about other individuals within the industry. They post fantastic things from, I believe it's in invest.org, and how you can use the skills that you already have in the insurance industry. Networking outside of the computer, of the internet, it was also very helpful. 

Rio Peterson: Right. 

Liesel Brink: I know once in a while, we go to our business after hours for the chamber, and there are a variety of different industries, industry specific organizations that you can connect with, especially in more urban areas, so that would be a consideration. Amber, what am I missing? I know a lot, so ... 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I mean, I would say, just kind of going back to the university, connecting with their resources. Often, nearby universities have a lot of connections with surrounding companies, and who knows, they might be an insurance company, so ... 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you both mentioned the career, the job fairs as well. It's probably a good place to make some connections. Fantastic. I know for myself, I also knew someone who worked at ALPS, and was able to make the move that way, so definitely a lot to be said for putting yourself out there and meeting people and making those connections. 

So let's kind of shift a bit back to you two, and tell me a little bit of like, "What are some of the things you like best about your roles, and maybe also working at ALPS specifically?" Amber, you want to start? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah, I can start. 

Rio Peterson: So I'm going to put you on the screen. 

Amber Kuhlman: No, that's okay. Some things about my role that I like is really focused on the wellness side initiative that we strive for. As far as work-life balance or wellness program, really, making it a place that people want to come to and enjoy working with their fellow coworkers is kind of, yeah, a big part of it, for me. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: Definitely, Amber. The people are great to work with, what continues for me to bring me back every day, but also, for me, the type of work that I get to do, it's never the same thing every day. The process might be the same, but the individuals are different, the circumstances are different, and so that truly is what the variety is what I enjoy the most as far as human resources and specifically ALPS. 

Rio Peterson: Got it. Fantastic. So talking a little bit about the wellness program, was that in place? I know, Amber, you've been here about a year and a half, but, Liesel, was that in place when you started at ALPS? 

Liesel Brink: So when I started back in 2015, it was not in place. We implemented little things here and there. At that time, I believe it was once a year, we tried to do something fun, and then it went to a quarter. Every quarter, we tried to do something, and then we aligned with a tech company, and then they offered physical, mental, emotional, and then also financial wellness options, and so that kind of started us off. I believe that was in 2017, and then the tech company decided that it wasn't what they wanted to focus on, and so we then went to a homegrown kind of wellness program. That is what Amber has definitely made her own over the last year and a half, so ... 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, fantastic. Amber, do you want to tell us a little bit more about the program, kind of what kinds of benefits we offer, kind of how you come up with all these awesome ideas, because I know there's always something great going on in that program? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah, yeah. I get my awesome ideas from all the subscriptions I have. I will say, all the wellness networks, for sure. 

Rio Peterson: Awesome. 

Amber Kuhlman: Awesome. Can't take credit for them all, but no, it's great. I love planning. I try and do a monthly highlighted activity that focuses on kind of those four functions that Liesel touched on, financial, mental, emotional, and physical, so I really try to get those all in the mix. They're all equally important. 

So each quarter, I focus on one of those, and we award our employees for staying healthy in many different ways, so there is an incentive a little bit there, but they get gift cards. It's a point-based system. They get gift cards in PTO quarterly, so there's that, but it's always really nice when we hear the feedback from employees that stop by and really enjoyed a walking challenge that we had going, or earlier last summer, we did a stair challenge, and seeing everyone come up the stairs as opposed to the elevator was great. And yeah, I love seeing that, so it's good. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, it's fantastic, and it seems like that's something I noticed right from the get-go when I started at ALPS. Everyone's very engaged with the wellness program. It's a very big hit, and just the benefits offered in it are really fantastic and very thorough. It's definitely another benefit to working at ALPS. Just putting it out there if anyone seconds, so ... 

Liesel Brink: But if I may, one of the important wellness aspects I find too, is the financial wellness that we focus on. 

Rio Peterson: Yes. 

Liesel Brink: We've partnered with a fantastic company, Best Money Moves out of Illinois with Ilyce Glink. She is the CEO and founder. They have come up with some fantastic opportunities for employees to learn more about how to save. They do monthly webinars. We've learned to, over the years, that if you help individuals understand their financials, that it could lead to less stress within the employee population. So I just want to do a shout-out to Amber for continuing that program with them because it's definitely very helpful. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, absolutely. And financial wellness tends to be something that isn't normally included in wellness, but you're so right, it is really deeply connected to a lot of the stress people experience, because financial literacy is something that we're not really taught in schools in any capacity, so it's really, really important to be able to provide that peace of mind and those tools to everyone. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 

Liesel Brink: One of the other benefits that we've come up with, well, that most companies provide is the Employee Assistance program, where individuals have access to talk to professionals for personal or professional reasons. If things are going on or they want to bounce ideas off of someone, that's not their supervisor or their family, we offer an Employee Assistance program that has an in-network list of providers that we can go to for free visits, but we've also implemented a reimbursement if our employees want to go to out-of-network providers, and that was a huge, huge implementation last year. Something brand new that we hadn't heard a lot of companies doing, so we're like, "Let's try it," and it seems to be going well, so ... 

Rio Peterson: Fantastic, and you've gotten ... I'm guessing you've heard some good feedback about that program? Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: So we've heard a little feedback, right? It's an anonymous program, so it's one of those things where we do get some numbers about, like if they have an intake, but we get to know other information other than that. So it's great that we are giving utilization. We have, I believe, 13% utilization rate, Amber, where the national is four to six usually. 

Rio Peterson: Whoo, that's fantastic. Love that people are taking care of themselves and that they're able to do so. 

Liesel Brink: Exactly. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, it's fantastic. So what are some of the other kind of benefits and perks that we've got here, working at ALPS? I know there's quite a long list. Do you guys want to take us through a couple of them? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. One of my favorites, I'll highlight, is the Lifestyle Spending Account. Coming from a different company, that's a benefit I haven't had before. So the Lifestyle Spending Account, ALPS gives us funds monthly that we can utilize towards a variety of things, whether it's an event ticket to go to the movies, or maybe a concert. Pet insurance can go towards that, or just your typical gym membership, so it's great. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, my standing desk. Thank you guys. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yes. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, I'm a big fan of that program too. 

Liesel Brink: Nice. For me, we have an Adoption Assistance Program. We also offer discount interest rates through SoFi, and we provide a high-yield savings options through that SoFi option too. We do a 6% match at 100% for our 401(k), so that is something, and we're fully vested as of our first contribution. So for me, those things have been very beneficial for ALPS employees. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. And it is something that I've really noticed about ALPS too, is that as an organization, we are very invested in our employees, not just well, their employees, but in their futures as well, whether that is moving on to the next company or into retirement. I mean, I know that a large number of our staff has been at ALPS for 15, 20, 25 years, so it's really, I don't know, reassuring and nice to see that we are so invested in everyone regardless of where they're at in their career path. I don't think a lot of companies think about that, so ... 

Liesel Brink: Yeah, Amber does a great- 

Rio Peterson: It's [inaudible 00:27:46]- 

Liesel Brink: Yeah. Amber does a great job with the training and development, and ensuring that our continuing education classes are getting credentialed for continuing education. It's one way we support our employees in licensure, and then we also encourage individuals and have supported them in earning their additional certifications of their choices. 

Rio Peterson: And I think we do student loan assistance as well, don't we? 

Liesel Brink: We do have a Student Loan Assistance program. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. 

Liesel Brink: And we- 

Rio Peterson: Then, we do all the things. There's too many things to list. We do everything. 

Liesel Brink: I mean, we do employee photos, fun photos, so they're not the stuffy headshots, which is super fun. We have an employee that has a hobby to take photos, and they've been so kind to provide us with photos of employees, so that's super fun to do. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, and they're so well done too. They're really nicely shot. That's fantastic. So we've got just a couple more minutes here. I think, first of all, what are some of the roles that are currently open at ALPS, if anyone out there listening is interested in checking us out? 

Amber Kuhlman: Yeah. I'll highlight the business development representative that we have open, specifically outbound. So we are looking for individual to come on and do sales. So you're interested in that, definitely connect with us on LinkedIn. It is also posted on LinkedIn, so check it out. But yeah, I'll let Liesel highlight the other one. 

Liesel Brink: Yeah. We are looking for a claims attorney. This position does require an individual to have their Juris Doctorate, so that is an important aspect of this. We will train an individual and get them licensed as an adjuster. However, we do need them to have that Juris Doctorate. We do hope and ask that they've had five years of experience working in the field of law, because what they'll be doing is helping our insureds during their time of need when a claim actually happens. 

So understanding a little bit about how things work in the practice of law is super helpful in this role. Happy to talk to someone about that. If they have more interest, they're welcome to reach out to us. I don't know if you want me to put my email, lbrink@alpsinsurance.com. Happy to have that conversation. 

Yeah, but if someone already has previous claims experience, we'd love to have that talk too. So yeah, reach out. Yeah, or if you live in Montana or want to move to Montana, it's a great opportunity. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah, Missoula is fantastic. It is a really fantastic spot. And so we've got, LinkedIn is a good place to reach out. We have a career section on the website, yup, so we can reach on your website. 

Liesel Brink: Correct. 

Rio Peterson: Can reach out to Liesel directly at lbrink@alpsinsurance.com. And yeah, we hope that you consider a career in insurance. It's a really fantastic industry, and I mean, I'm a little bit biased, but ALPS, in particular, is a pretty incredible place to work. So that's my two cents about the whole thing. Is there anything else? 

Liesel Brink: We agree. 

Amber Kuhlman: Yes. 

Rio Peterson: Is there anything else you two would like to add before we sign off? 

Amber Kuhlman: No. Thanks for tuning in. 

Rio Peterson: Yeah. So well, thank you both for joining me. This has been fantastic. And for those of you listening, we will catch you next month for the next installment of In Brief. Again, I'm Rio Peterson, and thanks for tuning in. 

ALPS In Brief Podcast - Episode 78: Succession Planning & Selecting a Backup Attorney

In this episode of ALPS In Brief, our Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte talks about the importance of creating a succession plan and naming a succession/backup attorney.

 

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Transcript: 

Hello, I am Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS. And welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Of course, that's where our home office is, and if you ever get out to Missoula, you should stop by. It is a beautiful, beautiful area. 

It's a time of year where you get to thinking about all kinds of things. We have a year coming to an end, and boy, what a crazy year this has been, huh? And a new year starting. And these are the times where at least I do, and I don't think I'm alone or unique in this, just start to do some processing, start to think about what was good about the year, what things need to be done. And also, I've been with ALPS now coming up in 26 years, and I've been thinking more and more about what's next for me. Again, I've got a lot of years left, God willing and knock on wood here that ALPS will want to continue to have me. 

But I want to say a lot of years, I don't know, five, six, maybe eight more years of work here, but I also think about retiring and what's next. And there are interesting things you start to think about just looking at all kinds of stuff. And I won't get into my sort of what's personally going on with me, but it does bring up an important topic, and that's the topic of succession planning. And I want to talk a little bit more about this in some interesting ways. It's something I've been talking about writing on for years. 

I can simply say it doesn't happen overnight. I'm in a community where I see lots of people. We're in a 55 plus community now down here in Florida actually. It's been just a wonderful, wonderful decision for us. But I see a lot of people in retirement. I see some that have been very successful and I have seen and visited with some where it's not working. There's different drivers behind why retirement happened for some. Some had happened earlier than they thought, think health issues as an example. Others are still very, very active in second or third careers. Just because they retired doesn't mean... They retired from their profession perhaps, but they're still doing all kinds of other things. 

So I want to talk about this. The first thing I want to say is regardless of your age and where you are in terms of your practice and your career in law, it's never too early to start. We've been dealing with the transition issues and decisions and financially restructuring for, oh gosh, now it's been a good six to eight years easy. And of course, we're blessed that we have the ability to retire at some point here. Again, I can say I've worked with lots and lots of lawyers, and I mean that literally who are not financially in a situation where retirement ever seems likely, and it doesn't need to be that way. So I just encourage you to start early, particularly on this, just the savings side, if nothing else, but okay, back to succession planning. And we're going to also explore backup attorneys in this context, which is the central issue I want to focus on here. 

But before we get there, being a lawyer is hard. I understand that. And it can be quite a challenge. It's an ever-changing landscape, if you will, in terms of the introduction of AI and how that's impacting things, but also different types of clients and different types of matters and all sorts of things can go on. And as some of you may know, if you've followed me over the years, whether on the blog or podcast, I've been at this a long time and I've done a lot of consulting and I have worked with lawyers that have dealt with cancer as an example. And one lawyer in particular was so involved out of necessity, don't get me wrong here, but so involved in his cancer treatment, having to travel and be gone extensively for chemotherapy. And the practice was being neglected in very, very significant ways. And there was some fallout unfortunately to that. 

I have been involved with numerous lawyers that have had, let's just say, challenges with competency. When there's dementia, which is, again, it's just a very serious problem with our profession. It's not unique to lawyers, but there's a lot of issues I've seen over the years that have led to claims and all kinds of things, unexpected things happen in life, in other words, but it's just wild in terms of all the crazy things I've seen. 

So I want to, again, to underscore, we need to think about succession planning. This is not something we do, again, in the twilight of one's career. I really see it as a strategic and forward thinking approach. That's what we need to be thinking about. It's going to benefit you regards to, it's obviously more important if you're in a solo space, but it's important even if you're in a small firm or even larger firms. Now, sometimes the problems, the issues that come into play as you get into larger firms are a bit different than what you're dealing with in small firms, but we do need to prepare for the unexpected. It is about, at the end of the day, taking care of our clients. 

So let's move forward here and talk about some other reasons why I see this as mitigating risk, preserving client relationships, again, thinking more importantly in the solo space, but again, absolutely not limited to this, but if we are unexpectedly taken out by a car crash, I've got a story about that. Won't bore with it today, bore you with it today, but someone ended up in a coma for quite an extended time, and a number of matters were neglected. So I see this as a competency issue thinking about rule 1.1. A diligence issue, 1.3, and there's some language in the rules, particularly in commentary and at least some of the states and in the ABA model rules that talk about the diligence mandates and attorney moving forward with some type of succession planning. It's just not optional. 

So I see it as an ethical obligation. I see it as taking care of one's career, reputational kinds of things. Particularly if something goes wrong, something unexpected happens, I see it as taking care of clients, building relationships, because we can talk about it. So it's about ensuring coverage in the event of some short-term health issues, but it's also about taking care of things in the unexpected deaths or long-term disability scenario too. Again, we could talk for quite some time about stories of how this has just been a problem. 

So I hope that kind of helps. I know it's a little bit of a ramble here and I've got all kinds of things going on in my head, but I really hope that you begin to get a sense of the importance of succession planning from a business perspective, from an ethical perspective and from a malpractice perspective. 

Let's move more now toward really what I want to focus on and center on. And it's really looking at a basic decision of backup attorneys. Now, before we dig into this, one of the things that I have found over the years is some attorneys are reluctant when asked to be a backup attorney. They're reluctant to agree to do so for a variety of reasons. But two of the more common concerns at times, I think, also used as excuses are I've got my own full-time practice, and how in the world can I handle two practices at once? Well, a successor attorney/backup attorney isn't necessarily charged with running a full second practice. In the backup situation, you're just covering for somebody for emergencies. Well, they're on a two-week vacation or whatever it might be, or whether they're in the hospital for a week or so for some immersion kind of thing. If it's an unexpected death, you're really being brought in to wind up the practice and oversee that. You're not running a full practice, you're not charged with taking on all of these clients and immediately doubling the size if your practice. 

And something else to think about whether you're agreeing to do this, being asked to do this and thinking about agreeing or doing the asking. The backup attorney/successor attorney situation doesn't have to be limited to just one individual. I have seen some situations that have been very, very successful in terms of there was an untimely death. And what happened was, for instance, a group of three, four, I've even seen five attorneys will agree to be there for each other and we have this group. And so if I'm the person in this group that passes unexpectedly, the other four can share the load. One might be responsible for putting out fires, one might be responsible for contacting clients, getting that letter that goes out, et cetera, taking care of those kinds of things. So you just split, you split the workload. Can make it very, very easy. 

The other excuse that I hear at times is the, well, is my malpractice going to cover me? Is there some... And again, I don't want to be sued for all this stuff. Well, first off, understand, again, in the winding up of the practice, you're really not doing anything legally. You're administering the duties of transition of client notification, et cetera. Now, I guess, at times, if you pick up a matter and once you make it your own, of course, your policy is going to be in play. But I could see there could be some situations. We try to figure things out, put out fires. Maybe something goes a little wrong here or in the backup situation. I can't say 100% for sure because policies differ between carriers, et cetera, et cetera, and the circumstances are going to dictate. But here's how I look at it. 

A carrier wants to make sure that when something goes wrong, again, an emergency illness, we like people taking vacations to stay fresh because burnout leads to depression and addictions and all this. We want to see lawyers take care of themselves. So getting some vacation time is a good thing. But if a backup attorney or successor attorney isn't trying to help, good Lord, it would make no sense for a carrier to say, I'm not going to defend this, or we're not going to get involved. It's just not a decision I would think any carrier is going to be feeling good about making. That's not in their best interest. Maybe that's another way to look at it. So I just don't think the coverage issue is as significant as some want to make it. 

There is language, I should say, in a number of policies that will describe or are in terms of under the definition of insured, will include a description of attorneys who are stepping in to help administer the winding down of a practice. There for backup. As long as they are doing so under the authority of an agreement of some sort, that kind of thing. 

Okay, so let's put that outta way or put that out of the way. So the next thing, and I've been asked at times, what do I do? How do I go about selecting a backup attorney? And this really gets to the heart of the issue. If you're working within a firm setting, hopefully there's someone else within the firm that has the skills and et cetera that can step in. If you are one that's, and again, typically it's going to be in a small firm setting that has some unique skills, well, you're going to have to find somebody outside of the firm and name because if no one else in the firm has the ability, that doesn't really solve the problem. So you might need to look external, but let's talk about that in the context of the solo attorney. 

And really what you need to do is just try to identify someone who is going to be competent. That is your obligation. So they have to have the skillset necessary to step in and understand what's going on in your practice, both as a backup attorney if ever needed, and then again, as a successor, should that ever come into play as well. They need to have good communication skills. They need to be experienced in the practice. And we need to think about, I guess, conflict concerns too. They should be somebody that isn't going to bring to the table or have all kinds of conflicts in light of their practice and yours. It can't be somebody that you're constantly on the other side of, is constantly opposing counsel to many of your clients. That's going to be problematic. So we just need to think about, again, is this person competent, diligent, a good communicator, as conflict free as possible, et cetera? And that can really be a good thing. Okay? 

And I guess the other thing, needs to be somebody that's going to have the time or the ability to make the time to step into this role. If someone is constantly on the road just by virtue of their practice and being available on not necessarily a minute's notice, but being available at times, if that's going to be problematic, that might not be the right fit. So again, we just need to look, does this work for the individual that you are asking? 

When we finally identify the individual that we think is going to be a good fit and this individual agrees or group of individuals, please don't overlook the importance of letting key staff know that this step has been taken care of, who this individual or group of individuals are, when and how they are to be reached so that the staff in the event of emergency know what to do. Again, I could tell stories where staff had no idea that there was a backup attorney, had no idea what they were supposed to do in a situation like this. The was a new receptionist and that was the only position she was charged with and she had no clue, was not really experienced in the legal profession or working in the legal profession and just sat there taking calls day after day. And a number of claims rose out of that because it was person injury plaintiff attorney who was in a coma for a while and some statutes ran during this time and she just sat there, had no clue. So again, we need to let people know. 

Some other things to think about. You might want to have a formal written agreement with the backup attorney successor. One and the same in most instances or group, and that's document or at least outline if you will the terms of the engagement, the scope, the responsibilities. There may or may not be compensation here. And you have to figure out if there is going to be some compensation, and particularly in the succession plan, successor attorney coming in and winding up a very busy practice, that can take some work and some time. And you can deal with covering those expenses in a variety of ways, not the least of which might be some type of key person life insurance, but there are ways to deal with this. But I like the idea of having some type of agreement so that we're all on the same page and really understand what the expectations are. 

And a number of times too, this can be a two-way street, if I ask you to be my backup attorney and you agree, and it might be, well, I agree to do the same for you. And so we can have these discussions and really talk about what are the roles going to be. 

So it's also worth letting your malpractice carrier know. There are some carriers out there, particularly in the solo space that will request knowledge of, or you need to report who is this, other carriers mandate or require it. They may not agree to insure you perhaps in a formal designation because they want to know who to contact if something happens here again. 

Some things to think about in terms of preparation. I would periodically review the plan and the agreement just because things change over time. And as you think about that, here's this other side not coming in. We've talked about, here are the roles, responsibilities, what we're anticipating, what we think we should be doing for each other, et cetera. But we should also perhaps have some type of writing. Could be a letter kept in a drawer somewhere, staff knows about, and this is primarily for the succession plan situation, but you need to think about setting forth the things that the successor attorney needs to know to run your practice, to be able to wind down your practice. 

So where's the calendar? What are the passwords to key programs or applications or laptops? That kind of thing. What about signature authority on the trust account? I don't want to see money locked up. And there are different ways to deal with that. Could even be just a contingent signature authority agreement of some sort. So there are a number of things you can do here, but I have seen situations where an attorney passed and none of this was done, and a lot of time and money was needlessly spent on trying to literally hack into computers because that's where all the information was and no one had any idea how to get in. So there has to be some ways to do that. 

And here's an interesting thought on this one. You can set up emergency access to password safes. More and more of us, if you're not using a password safe for cybersecurity reasons, boy, now's the time. That's a conversation kept for a whole nother day. But there's one way to do some of this. You can have emergency access and set that up. It varies in terms of what you can do and how you do it with these different password managers, but it's just another thing to think about and nothing to look at. There's all kinds of spins on this, but I'm hoping you have found something of value here and some encouragement to move forward. 

The one final thought I have is at the beginning I was talking about, well, there's this piece of client communication, and I want to take that just a little bit further. I also mentioned reputation can be an issue here and the failure unit to have a backup attorney leading to mistakes because you never get out and take a vacation or take care of yourself and prioritize wellness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You can get run down, burned out, depressed. Reputation can suffer in that way. Reputation can suffer because there is no plan. And you're in the hospital for four, six weeks in a coma, going back to that one story that I've been alluding to, and your reputation is dead there. 

But there's another angle to this reputation piece, and I see it as communicating the decision. I have some language and you're welcome to email me or look it up. I have some of this on our website, but if you have trouble finding it, you can let me know. But consider putting some language in your engagement agreement. And it might say something, I'm just going to read a short little paragraph as an example. But think about the message that you're giving. So I'm a new, our potential prospective client coming in, looking and all that, we're talking and I see this language, or you might even highlight it for me in the agreement, and it'll say something like this: 

While I strive to deliver excellent legal services to each and every client, I also have an ethical obligation to protect your interests during any extended absences such as a vacation and illness or any event of my unexpected death or disability. To accomplish this, I have named, of course, you insert the name for your backup attorney as my backup attorney who will be available during any extended absences or will step in to assist in the closing of my practice, should that ever prove necessary. I will personally provide you advanced notice of any planned absences, and my office staff or backup attorney will contact you with information on how to proceed should any unexpected event ever occur. 

I guess I'm a risk guy, okay, I get that. But I got to tell you, if I saw something like that, I would say this attorney is really thinking through the issues and doing everything he or she can to see that his or her clients are taken care of. And he's really thought this through. I want to work with someone like that. Wouldn't you? That's demonstrating commitment, loyalty, diligence, competency. And that just speaks volumes to me. So there's this other reputational angle to it that's saying, he's thinking about this, she's thinking about this. I like this. I'm going to work with them. Then you deliver. Man, I'm even more excited and I'm going to go out and just tell people. How do you think referrals... Referrals come on reputation and good work. Good reputation, you provide great service and all of that, referrals are going to come. So I think there's an angle to that as well. 

So I've been rambling on here for I don't know how long, but I hope you found something of value. I really believe that it's hard to do this at times. It's hard to get started. But I really do believe in the value of this. And once you have this taken care of, I think you're going to sleep better. I think it's going to be one less thing to worry about, and you can concentrate and focus more clearly on some other things in terms of just taking care of your clients. So name that backup attorney if you haven't. Name that successor attorney if you haven't. 

And once you do, please, please take the time. Take advantage of what you've just done and make sure you're getting that extended vacation from time to time to stay fresh, to nurture the significant, important, I'm sorry, the important and significant support systems in your life. Go on a cruise with your spouse. Go visit the grandkids and children for a week, whatever it might be, because wellness is so, so important in our profession too. It just helps you stay sharp. 

That's it for me. I hope you found something of value, and please don't hesitate to reach out if there's anything I can ever do for any of you. You do not need to be an ALPS insured to visit with me. There's no costs or fee to visit with me. If there's something I can do, hey, I'm here. My email address is mbass@alpsinsurance, ALPS Insurance, one word .com. 

Have a good one, all. 

Bye-bye. 

ALPS In Brief Podcast - Episode 77: 25 Holiday Risk Management Tips

In this episode of ALPS in Brief, our Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte shares his 25 holiday risk tips to keep your law firm's cybersecurity happy and healthy as we roll into the new year!

Transcript: 

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at Alps, and welcome to another episode of Alps In Brief, that podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. As you can tell, it's the end of the year and I'm trying to get ready and set for the holiday celebrations and whatnot, just having a little fun. 

So I thought about what to do for this month's podcast. I thought, why not share my 25 holiday risk tips as a countdown. And these are risk tips for 2023, the end of 2023, and maybe we'll do this every year. Who knows? We'll see. Let's jump right in, shall we? 

Number one, don't wait for that after Christmas sale. Make sure your firm's security software and operating systems on terms of all the devices, the servers, the computers, the laptops, everything. These updates need to be current systems need to be patched, and the reason is I just want to make sure you're properly protected during all of that online holiday shopping. 

Number two, the turkey helpline. I remember back in the day, they used to have these shows you could listen to, and my memory was it's on the radio, but you could listen to people calling in. They record some of these crazy calls to the Turkey hotline. I remember a woman very upset that her bird tasted like soap. And apparently what she had done was read in the instructions, you should clean your turkey before cooking it, then rinse it out, that kind of stuff. 

And apparently she used a lot dish washing soap and that's going to taste like soap. That's not how you clean a turkey, but I always got a kick out of that. But sometimes things don't work out quite as planned when it comes to the holiday bird, and some people really don't know what they're doing with these turkeys. And there is a turkey hotline out there to help you out, use it. 

Well, in a similar vein, if you have no idea how to properly secure your smartphones or other devices, the files that you have in cloud storage, even your home router, if you're using it for work, rest assured there's a support line for you too, and that's just called your IT support. Whoever he/she/they may be, please don't hesitate to reach out and get the help that you need. 

Number three, untangling the lights. As you search your attic or your basement, wherever you have your holiday decoration stored, remember to protect and organize your firm's virtual storage space so your digital files don't end up sort of in a similar mess. I remember year after year for a lot of years, trying to untangle all of these light strings and checking for the bulbs, etc. It's just a headache, just a headache. So, let's try not to let that happen with our client files that are virtually stored. 

Number four, make a list and check it twice. And before taking on a new matter, make certain that you and your client are in total agreement on the scope of representation, and that might even include discussing what you're not going to do. And then of course, make sure that you thoroughly document all that in writing because after all, memories really can be short. I mean, even Santa, after all, why do you think he has a list. 

Number five, up on the house top. Some of us excel at navigating a snow covered roof to hang the lights. Boy, there's some guys around here, I've seen this here, I'm thinking, these guys don't excel and you're just worried that dickens that somebody's going to take a fall. But on others, you really do need to learn that the annual trip to the ER can get expensive. 

The point of all this is no one excels at everything. Learn to say no when you really know that you should don't dabble and don't take on clients that you can't work well with. Otherwise, the control of your professional life is going to end up in someone else's hands and that someone else could easily be a problem client that just isn't worth it. 

Number six, let's talk about Santa's laptop. If you're traveling for business or a family gathering, always carry your laptop with you rather than checking it with your baggage, because sensitive information, perhaps your naughty and nice list, could end up missing. I really can share over the years when I look at some of the cyber claims that we've had, stolen laptops, lost laptops are not uncommon. So really try to stay in control of that as you travel. 

Wrapping the gifts, when it's time to wrap up a client matter, tell the client what your file retention policy is and document what they want to have happen to their file at the end of your file retention period. This is one of the most common calls that I get to this day. What do we do with these old files? Because we've never dealt with it. We've never informed clients what to do or what our policy is. And taking care of that at the time you know where your client is and you're closing a file can really solve a lot of headaches down the road. Or I should say prevent a lot of headaches down the road. 

Number eight, to Grandma's house we go. If you need to check in with the office on your way to wherever you're traveling, remember to use a VPN when traveling. This is especially important if you're going to be using open public wifi, if you're using a hotel signal or even a signal at a friend or family's home, you need to encrypt your data stream in these situations. It's just essential as I see it. 

Number nine, remember the reason for the season. Providing pro bono legal services is really a wonderful way to not only bring a little holiday cheer to someone else, but it really may just change their life. Don't minimize it. Give back. 

Number 10, hang your stockings with care. According to the most recent ABA profile of legal malpractice claims, almost 52% of reported claims in recent years were based on a substantive misstep, such as a failure to know the law or properly apply the law, and conflicts of interest. So don't dabble and don't short shrift your conflict resolution process unless of course you enjoy finding coal in your stocking. 

Number 11, no two snowflakes are alike. As with client expectations, no two clients are going to be alike either. Really take the time, learn to listen, ask the questions, try to determine each and every client's unique legal needs as well as their desired outcomes in order for you to meet their needs as best as you possibly can. 

Number 12, don't become Scrooge. If a client becomes delinquent on their account, investigate early, and either work out an alternative arrangement or get out if you can. Allowing someone's past due balance to soar when they are already unable to pay and then suing them for your fees when you're finished could result in a haunting tale of a malpractice counterclaim. Not fun, not good. 

Number 13, bells will be ringing, while a wonderful sound this time of year. Be careful not to have an alarm sound due to a shortfall in your trust account. Never allow the proceeds of a check to be dispersed prior to that check clearing. And remember, there's a difference between a bank saying, "The proceeds are available," and those funds being collected in good funds. And often that difference is five to seven business days and can even be longer in some instances. Caution is in order. 

Number 14, look out for the Grinch. Take the time to ask what can be learned from an experience with one of those problem clients, once the representation of course has ended. The failure to do so often means that another Grinch could be in your future. If you don't learn, you're likely to make the same intake mistake again. Ask the questions, look for the learning. 

Number 15, not a creature with stirring. To make certain no unwanted creatures are stirring in your office network, confirm that everyone in the office knows to never open an email or click on a link sent from an unknown source. Better yet, institute an ongoing mandatory social engineering training program that everyone must attend, everyone who works at your firm, including you. 

Number 16, let it snow. Clients will tend to more readily pay bills that are sent on a regular basis and that provide detail on each charge. Tell your story in the process of creating and presenting your bill. There is a huge difference as an example between saying, "Research five hours," and "Research case law on inviting nuisance, five hours." Let the client know the value they are getting, what they are getting, for the money that they're being charged. 

17, the ghost of files past. When it comes to computer files, delete is not always what it seems. If you don't want the recovery of deleted files rattling around late at night, you really need to electronically shred all that data by using a program that will overwrite it, thus making it unrecoverable. So before you recycle those phones or donate some laptops or whatever it might be, don't just delete files. You need to digitally erase them. 

Number 18, It's a Wonderful Life. George Bailey, if you recall, saw what his town would've been like if he were never born, such a great film. If you're a solo, however, what would happen if you were no longer around? Name a successor attorney to ensure that your clients and their matters will be properly cared for should the unexpected ever happen to you. Then sleep better knowing that you did the right thing. Succession planning folks is absolutely an essential obligation as I see it. Please take the time to do so if you already have it done so. 

Number 19, The Little Drummer Boy, just listening to some music last night. It was that time of year, once Thanksgiving rolls around, my wife has a rule, Christmas music is it until the end of Christmas. But bang that drum to get your message across. Make sure your colleagues are in step with the confidentiality rule. No files, for example, should be left accessible after hours. 

No one should use open public wifi networks or free email accounts like Gmail for professional purposes. And don't talk about client matters in public places. Sometimes maybe just a little review. Get the staff together for a 10 or 15 minute meeting over the lunch hour, have a little pizza or something. Maybe do this monthly. But just these gentle friendly reminders really can help keep the rules and our obligations fresh in our minds. That can be very, very helpful and very beneficial. 

Number 20, how about those New Year's resolutions? Enjoy the holiday party season more by learning what callback phishing is and how not to fall prey. Then relish in knowing that you now have a cybersecurity leg up on most of the other attorneys in the room. You really will. If the FBI just issued an alert talking about callback phishing, so binging it, Google it, or you might even go to a wonderful site. This is just an excellent, excellent resource. 

It is Know Be4, K-N-O-W-B-E, the number four, knowbe4.com, and look at some of their resources that are available for free. You could search callback phishing on their blog, and I assure you, you'll get some information and it's well worth knowing about. 

21, the night before CLE deadline, fulfill your CLE requirements on time. You might look with the Alps. We have a lot of CLE out there, online, on demand, and if you're not familiar with it, it's www.alpsinsurance, one word A-L-P-S, insurance, one word, .com/cle. After all, that December 31st deadline for some of us is fast approaching. 

22, setting out Santa's cookies. When do I remember those days? Our kids are all grown and adult now, and we are Brady family, but we had five kids in our blended family, and I do remember, and it was a lot of fun, setting out the cookies and doing all the things that we did. For many families, this is one of the last things done before the kids are tucked in and that little detail counts. 

Similarly, once a matter is closed. Don't overlook the last important detail of properly preparing a file for storage. Use a file closing checklist to make certain that all the closing tasks are taken care of. If you don't have a file closing checklist, I invite you to get one of ours. I have one available on our website. Again, it's alpsinsurance.com, and you can click under resources and there's a section there for sample forms, a sample checklist, and you will find a file closing checklist there. Perhaps that might be helpful to you. 

23, giving thanks. You really are being honored. Every time a client places a new matter in your capable, competent hands. Honor them back by sending a thank you note at the conclusion of every matter. Just say, "Thanks, it's been a pleasure." You may find that referral and repeat work just starts to go up and maybe even soar, because you understand and remember who has hired who. 

24. Give yourself a gift, and this is so, so important in my mind. Remember, one of the best ways to serve your clients well and truly to keep your practice thriving is to prioritize taking care of yourself. After all, gingerbread, which I love, always tastes better when life is good. Take care of yourself, and don't forget to nourish the relationships that you have with your support systems, whoever they may be. You want them around years from now as well too. So take that time.

And finally, 25, we're just looking through the years. I have been in this role of risk manager here at Alps just shy of 26 years, and I really have felt so honored and blessed to have had this opportunity. And don't misunderstand me, I'm not going anywhere. I hope to be here for a number of years yet. We'll just see. 

But it really has been just an incredible honor to serve as a risk manager, as your risk manager, to be a risk manager and a resource in the legal community at large. So with that in mind, I'd simply like to say, may your holiday season be both merry and bright and most importantly blessed. I hope you found something of value in my short, quick countdown this year and stay well. Take care of yourself. Bye-Bye. 

 

ALPS In Brief Podcast - Episode 76: Practicing Law as a Mom Shouldn’t Be an Either/Or Proposition

Mothers understand each other. In this episode of the ALPS In Brief Podcast, Attorney Abigail Benjamin talks with ALPS Account Manager Meg Ratzburg and Underwriting Manager Leah Gooley about the hardships and triumphs of being both a mother and an attorney — and how legal culture shifts like ALPS' new Parental Leave coverage help to better accommodate women who want to bring their best to both worlds (and not have to leave law practice).

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Transcript: 

Leah Gooley:

Well, hello and welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in downtown Missoula, Montana. I'm Leah Gooley and I'm the underwriting manager here at ALPS. And I'm here with Meg.

Meg Ratzburg:

Meg Ratzburg. I'm the account manager for the states of Georgia and West Virginia for our ALPS insured.

Leah Gooley:

And Meg is here, both of us are here to introduce Abigail Benjamin. She is an experienced West Virginia attorney and one of our insureds and is here to share an amazing story with us. So with that, we'd just like to turn it over to Abigail to tell us a little bit about your experience, starting with how you began in a solo practice of law.

Abigail Benjamin:

Yeah. Oh, okay. You guys just see me. This is kind of an eclectic story, so you just let me know if I'm going too much in the weeds, but I'm almost 50. This practice has been going on for seven years and I sort of did the traditional college law school graduate at 25, found what I thought was my dream job in public interest law, and then had two kids and I ran into that barrier, I think we're going to talk to later about being a female attorney with young kids. And I want to say it wasn't just a time crunch. It was wanting to show up for my family and my kids in a way that I wasn't just exhausted and overwhelmed.

So I didn't get that support and I just chose my kids. And at age 40, I had made what I thought was a very happy life, not practicing law. I had six kids, ages 13 to 1. I was growing kale in my backyard. I was writing fiction, I was following politics and on the news, living in a corner of my home state of West Virginia, about 70 miles from DC and God bless anyone from dc but there's a lot of lawyers in DC and there's a lot of unhappy lawyers in DC.

So I was very comfortable not practicing law. And The practice came out when I was 41 on a base of a very ethereal idea and some very good, wise people giving me thoughtful advice. And so the first start was in my faith tradition, Pope Francis is our head, and he really encouraged us Catholics to lean into this idea of environmental justice. And I had been a nonprofit lawyer. I was very keen to economic issues and worries about justice with the poor, but I hadn't really, really thought about economic justice issues and how that impacts both poor Appalachians and people of color around the United States.

So I just had this thought, but again, raising kale, homeschooling six kids, I took a one-shot volunteer opportunity, limited, limited, and I volunteered at an environmental film festival called the American Conservation Film Festival. And I saw this film that just blew... It knocked my socks off. It just really opened up my eyes. It was about a water crisis event we had in West Virginia. It was the Elk River Crisis. And this was the interesting part about art and film. I definitely was somebody that was educated in the audience. I knew what my state's problems were. I read the news. But seeing this timeline, as a lawyer, I was just like, oh my gosh, this was not an inevitable catastrophe.

What happened is we have these giant chemical plants storing chemicals, very dangerous stuff, right on the waters that we all drink from. And it was two rust holes the size of quarters that dumped all that toxic stuff and one half of my state's population lost their drinking water. And it wasn't the regular boil advisory where it was an inconvenience. You put the pot on the stove for 30 minutes and you have drinking water. You could not bathe in this water, you could not wash your clothes. The smell coming out of the taps was making people sick, skin rashes. And all of the environmental protocols were followed. They called the spill line, they did this stuff, but it was these local small businesses in Charleston. It was an ice cream shop, Ellen's Ice Cream, that was making their ice cream for the day. And this terrible smell came in and they were like, "This is not good." And they called the public health coordinator. And that's what started this looking at this environmental issue.

So I was amazed at that film and the discussion around it and I was very interested as a lawyer that this catastrophe, people had known for about seven years that this firm was not following protocols. And they were calling in complaints, like nuisance and complaints about smells and spills, but they didn't file a lawsuit. I mean, it was just sort of stacking up and stacking up.

And so, as somebody who was a lawyer, I was like, "Man, I wonder if encouraging lawyers to take these small cases and looking at environmental protection, not as, I mean God bless them, Sierra Club or these kind of large swaths, but that individual boots on the ground thing." That's what really got me excited. So I called up my property law professor who I had not talked to in 10 years, at the University of Wisconsin, and he's super cool, and let me know if I'm going on too long in the weeds.

Leah Gooley:

This is amazing. [inaudible 00:06:08].

Abigail Benjamin:

He's actually South African. It's so weird. But he's South African. His name was Heinz Klug and he worked with Nelson Mandela. He helped to do the South African Constitution. And he actually ended up being my law professor now 20 years ago because his work against Apartheid was so dangerous there was a price on his head. So he had to come to America to save his life and ended up falling in love with an American girl who taught sociology law. And so he just found himself in Madison, Wisconsin and was my property law professor. So I called him and, again, just supposed to be a one-shot deal. I'm like, I have this amazing film about my home state of West Virginia, and I think it'll really jazz up the 1L's in your class, and I want to come share it.

And we had this amazing meeting of the minds, and that's what happens with business, I think, it's this synchronicity. And he was like, "Abigail, I get you." He's like, "This is just in Africa." And honestly, I was kind of offended as an American. I was like, "No, no, no, no. I know West Virginia's weird, but we're 70 miles from Washington DC. You have your problems over in Africa, but it's not that bad over here." And he's like, "This systemic problem, the way that justice can fail to get implemented on the ground, this is systemic, this is worldwide, and I think you should come."

And so again, retired lawyer for over 10 years, I had never been on an airplane. And he sent me an airplane ticket and a really nice hotel room to come to my law school to give this presentation. And I was really humbled because my friends who had stayed on that linear path, I mean they were partners at law firms in Milwaukee and Chicago. And here I was getting the red carpet rolled out to come back to my law and speak. And so the idea of my practice, it really came from my South African professor, a visiting law professor from India, and then one of the environmental law professors who just happened... They were a little younger than me, but grew up in Tennessee and really understood the thing that I was seeing.

And so that kind of weekend conversation about this idea I had for a practice, and I initially didn't think I had the resources, the time or the money to start my own practice. So I was like, I need to fundraise. I have a great idea for a practice. And the idea for the practice was not somebody that came in from the top down like Sierra Club or Natural Resources, not that they're not doing great work, but in West Virginia, there's a very much stiff resistance against outsiders telling us what to do.

Leah Gooley:

Sure, sure. Yeah, that's common, I'm sure.

Abigail Benjamin:

There's real pushback against like, "What's this Clean Water Act?" And so I thought having a native child that's in the community, that is going to rotary meetings, and I do a lot of acting, so is on community theater. And when I go and do my presentations in court, which are some environmental, but quite honestly are a lot of basic property rights, I don't get dismissed as the outsider. I'm really representing how these harms are hurting us as a community. And so I thought I had six kids, that disqualified me. I was trying to find a new grad and I was like, "Hey, I think you could do this for $60,000. I'll fundraise. I'll call my friends and we'll put this together." And God bless that person from Tennessee because he kept saying, "This sounds like a you project. I don't have a student at 25 I can just fling into this Appalachia to try to make a change. This sounds like a you project."

And I'm like, "Well," I'm like, "I'm too busy. I've got these six kids." And so just that idea of not "I can't," but shifting a question to "Could I do that?" And I'm really lucky. My husband was really supportive, my kids were supportive. I had a group of community people that I was working with on the heroin issue, because Appalachia, we got a lot of stuff wrong, but one of the things was the opiate epidemic. And they really just held my hand through that nervousness phase of I'm going to sit down and retake the bar exam in West Virginia for the first time at 41, and I'm going to show up.

And I ended up taking the bar exam in a hotel that overlooked that river, that inspired me to do the thing. And so within a couple of days after I passed the bar exam, I had an opportunity because there's not a lot of pro bono lawyers out here floating around in West Virginia. So I got a call from an environmental group to join an action against a state gas company that was doing a monopoly. They were trying to build a natural gas line over geography that we thought was unsafe.

And I just went in to do a speech in front of a group of people, and one guy just literally took off his hat and passed it around, and they threw in $800, enough money for me, because I didn't need money for me, but I had to pay the court reporter. And so we got a deposition from a really good scientist about damage to the Potomac River, which is the drinking water for not just us in West Virginia, but for all those poor people in DC.

Leah Gooley:

Talk about grassroots. That's amazing.

Meg Ratzburg:

It's like they needed you and you needed them. I love that.

Abigail Benjamin:

Thing, Well, again, I jumped into this lawsuit. I was number 17. I was the 17th lawyer in this lawsuit, the only one who was living in the area. Everybody else was down south in Charleston. And the only one representing what I feel is the people. And I was so poor I didn't have a working printer. So I went to Kinko's and they were my law office, and I would print out the 19 copies I needed and stapled it and sent it off, but it ended up working and we got an environmental concession and I got to get on TV. And so just that type of feedback, I think of having an idea, having really solid people encouraging you to go to that untraditional idea and then having that success. Anyway, that's how I got started.

Leah Gooley:

That is an amazing story.

Meg Ratzburg:

I love that.

Abigail Benjamin:

It's very weird. Yes, it's very-

Leah Gooley:

Not focused.

Meg Ratzburg:

I love it.

Leah Gooley:

The fact that you provided a local solution from a local person with community support, as Meg noted, in a non-linear [inaudible 00:13:20].

Abigail Benjamin:

And supported by that international perspective. I mean, who would've thought about that? But that's the beauty of it.

Meg Ratzburg:

It was universal, yeah.

Abigail Benjamin:

I think, lawyers, the analysis we can carry to something, we can be from very different backgrounds, but we can be working on the same solutions. And that's just so exciting to me.

Leah Gooley:

And not for a shameless plug for ALPS, but our focus is solos and small firms, and that's the value that those solo firms you can provide in that capacity with this organic idea that you put together. And that's really, we're very proud to be able to support attorneys in that position with the pieces that we have, the risk management, the affordable policies. That's really awesome to see that, especially in your local community. That's so exciting.

Abigail Benjamin:

Yeah, yeah. And I would just say the importance of my work with environmentalism is it's really important to be a solo because I would be conflicted out of all of these interesting cases if I was in a larger firm. And also just for me, personally, trying to balance having kids and having a practice, I'm the boss, so I don't need to ask permission to move back a meeting to take care of my kids. That's just built into the practice that I have. Again, we'll talk about how ALPS is really special to this story, but it's nice to have those big firm tools and expertise, but still preserving for me the passion and the interest that really drives me to be a good lawyer.

Leah Gooley:

That brought you out of retirement.

Abigail Benjamin:

Yes, yes, yes.

Leah Gooley:

Well then this feels like an excellent time to talk about your experience as a female attorney and more specifically your experience as a mom and that piece of the story.

Abigail Benjamin:

Again, I had started this dream of a practice thinking basically that my having kids was finished. And about 10 months after I had started going back all jazzed up about environmental issues, my husband decided to take a job as an academic. He's an art professor, and so it was really great for him to switch out of being a long distance commuter to DC and teach, his love, but he lost half of his income. And so suddenly this project that for me was just sort of, oh, interesting, volunteering and pro bono, I suddenly had to literally get the grocery money for the kids.

And so I transitioned. Thank goodness ALP started me on that little first flights program. And then I moved in organically. And then two weeks after I signed my commercial lease to move back to my hometown and open up a more standard solo practice, I found out that I was surprisingly pregnant with my seventh child. And it was really awesome, but it was really scary because suddenly I had this commercial lease and I had run into trouble earlier in my career balancing, I felt like, kids and law. And now suddenly I was by myself and having to do that.

And, Luke, who's awesome, but I had a high-risk medical pregnancy with him. And I ended up on bedrest in a hospital, really trying to run my law practice, brand new law practice, with a locked file cabinet in my hospital room and some phones. And I was able to do it, but I didn't have that sizable kind of war chest, that backup. Again, just like daily bills I was paying, but I didn't have enough to pay my ALPS insurance premium. And so that was so beautiful. Luke was born and he was premature, and he and I were here but still shaken up by the experience.

And I reached out to Meg and I just told her my situation and I said I was a new mom and I had this premature baby and that I wasn't going to be able to meet that deadline. And she reached back out to me and said, and this was the line that was like... She said, "I remember those days. I remember those days and I'm going to look..." And she worked out the payment plan for me. But getting that affirmation, I think, from the corporate identity of a malpractice insurance, having them have that caring central thing about caring for me as a person and willing to bet that this was just a temporary hiccup for me and I was going to be a great client moving forward. It just meant the world to me.

And I actually, I don't know if I shared this with you, Meg, but I used the confidence from our exchange to go talk to a local banker who was also a woman in my town, and I got a better line of credit. So it really affirmed to me that the practice of law was valuable for me as a young mother, and it was okay to ask for accommodation so that I could stay mentally healthy, be there for my kid, and also serve my clients. It was a fragile time for me, and I really just appreciated that vote of confidence.

Leah Gooley:

That's so awesome.

Meg Ratzburg:

I love that. That just touches my heart. Even when you sent me the email I cried through the whole office. I'm kind of a crier.

Abigail Benjamin:

So the backstory is I sent a thank you note to Meg when my little son, Luke, who was the premature baby five years ago, when he celebrated his fifth birthday, and he's super healthy and happy, and I was just like, "Thank you, because I have this healthy baby, but I also have a healthy law practice and thanks for not making me have to choose one or the other."

Meg Ratzburg:

I love that. Women and mothers understand each other and can support each other. I love that.

Leah Gooley:

Everybody take a minute. In the backdrop of law that you mentioned earlier where that can just be a conflict, trying to show up for your kids and your family in a real way as you also balance some pretty heavy expectations in the larger law firm space can be so overwhelming, especially to women who have the mantra of doing it all and some of that context that it's hard to mentally work your way through. Clearly you said, "Well, at some point I'm not going to do that. I'm going to step away." And that's not what the law profession needs.

And we see that in that women are a majority now of law school students, but after five years start to drop out of the professions for a lot of the same reasons that you've talked... So very interested to hear more about your thoughts on what some of those challenges are for women in law and where we or the law community might be able to meet some of those challenges.

Abigail Benjamin:

I'm so glad you asked that question because this was exactly my story. I had gone from a really small town in West Virginia, 5,000. I went to a women's college, Smith College out of Massachusetts, and I went to a really good public interest law group in University of Wisconsin. And I had gotten the plum job. I worked as legal service attorney. I worked with a lot of women, and everything seemed to really fall into place, from being 25 to 29 for four and a half years. But when I got pregnant with my second child, I felt exhausted.

And one of the things that makes me upset is we, as attorneys, we are expert at managing expectations and delivering conflicting things. We're experts at crisis management. I mean, at least my practice, but I think a lot of other people, it kind of feels like an ER doctor. You plan to work on one thing and a client called and they have an emergency, and so you're going to shuffle your day around. And those are exactly the skills that you need for balance in terms of having a lot of kids or just having a creative life.

I mean, I got to do Wizard of Oz this summer with my kids, and let me tell you, those two weeks that we were in tech rehearsal, not a lot of law was getting done. But those kind of shifts, that's really normal as a lawyer. And when I look back, I'm upset at myself at 30 because I felt inferior, that my child needing me or being pregnant or asking Meg for an extension because I had a premature baby and had been working for three months, that's life. And that's a healthy, well-rounded life.

And it's just amazing that right now in my stage of life, I had a mom that died of cancer after two years of treatment, and my elderly dad needs some help. And it's weird, judges and other lawyers are so much more calm about giving me elder law care, flexibility, than they were about me giving birth and having kids. And I don't know how much is my uncomfortability asking for that, but once I started as a solo, I really had this idea that my husband and my kids were my first eight clients and they got the top eight slots of my day.

But that also means I can handle about 30, so there's a whole bunch of work that I can do for the community, and occasionally somebody has a deposition or I've got a hearing, those clients bump up and they trump my five-year-old. But most of the time my family gets the top billing and I'm really comfortable handling the rest of the time. And so the issue then, honestly, right now at 50 isn't so much balancing my being a mom versus being an attorney. It's really making sure that I'm being healthy for me, because I tend not to put myself in the mix. So trying to be healthy and sustainable, keeping up my exercise program, eating right, those kinds of things, I struggle with much more than telling a client to pause for a minute while I talk to my kids.

And I would also say, when I was growing up, I thought having kids meant you had a career disruption, very small, when they were little, like zero to three. But my teenagers, I swear, need me way more than my five-year-old. And it's like the teenager is fine until my 20-year-old's in college, and then suddenly I'm at the door for work and you've got to stop and take that moment and connect with them. But that's where being a solo or a small firm is perfect because it's very, very rare that I have to be in my law office at 9:00 in the morning. I can take those moments to connect with them when they're ready. And I still feel like a great lawyer if I've spent 30 minutes with my teen and show up at 9:30 instead of 9:00, and so-

Meg Ratzburg:

You're probably a better lawyer, because you're taking care of what you need-

Abigail Benjamin:

Exactly.

Meg Ratzburg:

... so you're present for your client because your life's taken care of.

Leah Gooley:

Yeah yeah.

Meg Ratzburg:

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Leah Gooley:

Abigail-

Abigail Benjamin:

So I would say... Oh, go ahead.

Leah Gooley:

Oh, just asking what advice would you give to a 25-year-old, 30-year-old attorney in that position, male or female, facing the crux of kids versus work? What advice would you give them?

Abigail Benjamin:

I would say try your best not to see it as kids versus work, but what makes you a healthy human being and how can you practice law in a way that's healthy? I made the mistake of, I had female role models when I was 25 just starting off in law, and they were awesome attorneys. Their lives with their families did not look anything like how I wanted to be. I had really amazing managing attorneys, but they either had the swap where the husband was the kind of 1950s spouse that did everything, and they were in the office for 80 to 100 hours a week, or they outsourced. The nanny came and picked the kid up in the morning at 5:00 AM and then had them until 7:00 and fed them every meal and stuff.

And not that that's bad, but the idea of a lawyer sitting in the office for 100 hours a week, and I would say 85-plus was very normal for me in an 85-person public-interest law job. I don't think that makes for healthy people. That's unsustainable, I think, when you have a tiny newborn that's waking you up. But I wasn't living a healthy life when I was newly married, but it didn't hit me as bad as when I had this little one-year-old who, even when I saw them, I was so obsessed with worrying about my cases and how tired I was from this stuff.

So male or woman, just really try to find lawyers that are healthy, that are energetic, that are doing awesome in the courtroom, but you want to, A, have time to take you out for a beer or a coffee, and then are interesting to talk to over a beer or a coffee. It's more than just can you practice law well in the courtroom? That's what I feel like. So it's finding a sustainable practice.

Leah Gooley:

That is such great advice. And so, for the current atmosphere, right in the profession, being able to talk to attorneys in general to say, be a whole person, have a well-rounded life.

Meg Ratzburg:

A whole person.

Leah Gooley:

The attorney wellness right now is a moderate crisis. People are in a tough spot. And so being able to have that message to folks is so important right now, reinforced from folks within the community, people who have made those difficult journeys. Yours is so inspiring in that way. The weaving and being able to be back into a position where you're providing value, you're providing value to your family and yourself, and you're-

Abigail Benjamin:

And everything's Meaningful. And Meg was saying the time with my kids and my teens, that's making me a better attorney because I'm a more fully engaged human. Yeah.

Leah Gooley:

Yep.

Abigail Benjamin:

Yeah.

Leah Gooley:

Beautiful. That's so great. Let's see. Those are the questions in general we had wanted to wrestle with. Is there anything else that you wanted to add just in your experience in this, again, really inspiring journey to attorneys now or just in general to the community?

Abigail Benjamin:

Well, I just want to give a shout-out. My bar association has free Zoom meeting. It's for mental wellness. It's really about health and it's run by a therapist. I was initially kind of nervous to join, but it has been amazing. And one of the nicest thing is we have a judge on there, which was kind of very nervous. You're not used to seeing the guys in the robe as you're like, "Yeah, I'm struggling with my teen today," or whatever. But it was really humanizing to see people of different ages, different backgrounds, vastly different sections of law. I mean, I think I'm a little guilty of really talking mostly to other attorneys that are in my same skillset, but it's so amazing to see people struggling with this idea of how can I practice law, do good to my clients, but also in a way that's sustainable, that's healthy for me?

And I would say 90% of all lawyers that I practice with, and COVID has really helped. I think we're pretty human. We're in a small state. I think people are pretty gracious about giving extensions or helping a client really find a good fit between... I might have somebody that has a case, but I'm not the right lawyer for them, so I'm going to reach out and find a referral to them, kind of that humanness. But I would say there is 10% that is kind of jerks and that has that sort of adverse priority relationship even when we're not in court. But this wellness group has helped me have confidence where I'm like, "Dude, you're just not on my team."

I'm going to keep my armor up in the velvet glove and the professionalism. But it's allowed me, I think, to feel more confident, again, as that human being. The other thing I would say, again, just call-out to ALPS. It's amazing as a solo to put a team together. So even though I'm alone, I have Meg and ALPS. And ALPS is great because, for me, I have ADHD, ALPS is like, "Get your records together, girl." I mean, there's these firm, always write the engagement letter, always say when you're off the case. And these kind of, it's almost like a managing attorney role, so that helps me. My interest is obviously talking to people and solving the law. It's not necessarily administration, but ALPS is that person that's helping me make sure that I hit the things I need to do to stay protected and it gives me confidence.

Leah Gooley:

Awesome to hear that.

Abigail Benjamin:

And I have a team. I have financial advisors, really helpful with therapists. I have a lot of friends that are therapists because a lot of what we're doing in law, it's very emotional. I might know what to do, but trying to handle those clients that are... I mean, they come in with property law issues and I mean, they're crying. I mean, it can be really traumatic. And so that's what I like. I might be alone, but I have a team of people that I can look to for my clients, but also I can look to for myself. And I'm always interested in learning how to do things better.

The one thing I would say for attorneys that I think I found because I took this little detour, I think it's very, very important to stay intellectually curious and not just go to CLEs, but watch PBS documentaries and go to theater plays and act. My husband and I right now, we're taking an adult tap class on Wednesday nights, and our kids are dancers and we suck. I mean, we are like [inaudible 00:32:54]. But we're out there learning the shuffle step and doing our little things. And I mean, it is so healthy. I'm almost 49, he's 51. It is so healthy to be in something that is not your skill level.

And I think attorneys, we're interested, curious bunches, and it's sad if we get burnt out or tired or always having to be the leader, the one with the answer. Again, I think mental health is important. Exercise, diet is important, but keeping that curious, playful kid, the person you were before you sat through contracts law as a 1L, keep that person alive because that's really who people respond to. And then I think they trust me in my community to have answers for complex things because they see me as a human being and I'm out in the community, so that's my-

Leah Gooley:

Awesome.

Abigail Benjamin:

[inaudible 00:33:59].

Meg Ratzburg:

Great.

Leah Gooley:

Well, to wrap things up, we have a couple of lightning round type questions, if you're game.

Abigail Benjamin:

Okay.

Leah Gooley:

Are you a dog or a cat person?

Abigail Benjamin:

Cats. I'm a cat person. Yes.

Leah Gooley:

A cat person. And what are you reading right now?

Abigail Benjamin:

Oh gosh, so much. Actually, with all my different interests, we have a family bookstore that's kind of like our family farm, but this is a West Virginia, I swear I didn't know this question was coming. This is just on my... I use books like I use law. I have my other stuff too. But Pearl S. Buck is a West Virginian who actually wrote very sympathetically about the Chinese, and The Exile is actually a portrait about her mother.

I lost my mom. My mom died after a two-year battle with cancer in January. And it's been really helpful not just to take time off my practice to go to grief group. That's good, too. But it's been really helpful for me to read a lot of books where people are reflecting about their mom. I feel a lot more connected just hearing about other people's stories.

Leah Gooley:

That's beautiful. Thank you.

Abigail Benjamin:

Thanks.

Leah Gooley:

Last question. Do you see any of your seven kids going to law school?

Abigail Benjamin:

Here's the thing. My husband is a digital artist and art professor. And so they really had no... I mean, Mom's job was boring compared to Dad's job of making animation and stuff. But my 16-year-old has just really fallen in love with history, and it was like the first time she told me she had opinions about President Andrew Jackson. I was like, "What?"

Leah Gooley:

What you doing, girl?

Abigail Benjamin:

Yeah, yeah. And her... they're all ballet dancers. It turns out that one of her good friends is really excited to become a criminal defense attorney, AKA Perry Mason. So that has been adorable. So she secretly, I think after I joke that her ballet career, either when she's 40 and she retires from ballet or she gets injured, she's in line now to take over my firm, so that was okay.

Leah Gooley:

Succession planing, starting early. Okay.

Abigail Benjamin:

[inaudible 00:36:27]. I love it.

Leah Gooley:

Well, I couldn't be more grateful for your time with us today-

Abigail Benjamin:

Oh, thank you.

Leah Gooley:

... for sharing your stories and such great advice. Wonderful to talk with you today. Just a huge thank you to you.

Meg Ratzburg:

Yeah, such a delight, Abigail.

Abigail Benjamin:

Oh, thank you.

Meg Ratzburg:

Thank you. Thank you very much. And good luck to everyone out there.

Leah Gooley:

Great, thank you. I'll just say to our listeners, just if you have any questions for ALPS, if you're insured with us, please reach out to your account manager, like Meg.

Meg Ratzburg:

West Virginia or Georgia.

Leah Gooley:

Absolutely. I'm happy to answer any questions. As Abigail had mentioned, there are some serious risk management, How to Run a Solo Practice resources on our website. It's alpsinsurance.com. There's some great blog posts, videos, articles written by our claims attorneys who are on staff to handle claims that come in from our insureds. So really great resources. If you have any questions or want to know more, please check that out at alpsinsurance.com. Thank you again from beautiful, cold Missoula, and we will see you next time.

Meg Ratzburg:

Thanks. Thanks, Abigail.

Leah Gooley:

Thanks, Abigail.

Abigail Benjamin:

Thank you, guys. Bye-bye.

Leah Gooley:

Bye.

 

ALPS In Brief - Episode 75: What is the Corporate Transparency Act

In this latest episode of ALPS In Brief, ALPS Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte shares some vital information about the Corporate Transparency Act as it relates to the practice of law ... as well as some other spooky insights. 

A Brief Statement of Correction from Mark: “During this podcast I stated that under the Corporate Transparency Act, BOI reports were to be filed annually. That statement was incorrect. The correct requirement is that reporting companies have 30 days to report changes to the information in their previously filed BOI reports and must correct inaccurate information in previously filed reports within 30 days of when the reporting company becomes aware or has reason to know of the inaccuracy of information in earlier BOI reports.” 

—

Transcript: 

Mark Bassingthwaighte: 

Hello, I am Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS. And welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. 

I was just out in Missoula just a couple of weeks ago and visiting the home office, I had a wonderful time. And I will have to say now that winter's kind of moving in here and it's nice to be back in Florida. But it's always good to get back to the old stomping grounds, if you will. 

It's November now, and I have been trying to think about, okay, what would I like to share with all of you this month in November? And I got thinking, well, it's November and they're also... I just felt that there are two topics that I'd like to talk about, two that I think a lot of lawyers don't know that they need to know a bit more about these two topics. And so given that it's the month of November, the theme is what two things that you don't know that you need to know... get the play here? No, I'm just having a little fun. 

So anyway, let's get to it. The first, we've just had October pass, and that is Cybersecurity Awareness Month. And I'm sure some of you're probably just dog-tired of hearing about cybersecurity, and it's just one of these topics that, man. I know, I know, I really get it. But I wanted to follow up. So one of these topics is going to be sort of cybersecurity related and just explore another topic here that I just think is very, very important. And it really deals with backups in light of ransomware. And I'm sure we've heard all kinds of things about ransomware. If you follow any of these stories going on and education going on in October. 

And for those of you that don't know, maybe I should stop very quickly. Ransomware, just as a reminder, it's these rogue programs that can be downloaded unintentionally by anybody in your office, your staff, another associate, partner, anyone, just being tricked into doing something that wasn't in their best interest. Clicking on a link they shouldn't have, downloading a document or opening a document that they were tricked into opening. And it may look legit. There's some stuff here. But it also comes with this payload of malicious software. And it will encrypt all of your data, sooner or later. It can sit at times. But it will again encrypt everything and then eventually you get this little ransom note that says, if you'd like access to your data, again, you need to pay this amount in cryptocurrency by such and such a deadline. And if you don't, you're not going to get your data back. 

As an aside, I would encourage you never to pay this because even if you get the decryption key, sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes it only decrypts part of it and you need to pay more. Sometimes you can get some of your data back and then they'll say, "Oh, by the way, we want another ransom because if you don't pay us, we still have all your data. We upload it and we're going to sell it or we're going to post it online." 

It's just a heck of a mess. Well, one of the best ways to avoid having to pay ransom if you get hit with something like this is to have a good backup. And for quite some time, I've been talking about backups and I will share what I've been saying. But there's a change, if you will, in play, in terms of recommendations, in terms of what best practices are with your backup process. So I'd like to get us there to what this new change is and just to create some awareness. 

So initially, what I've been talking about and many others that do these kinds of things that I do in terms of trying to educate on cybersecurity, we talk about a backup process. And this has been sort of state-of-the-art for a while now. It's three, two, one. And I kind of have this little spin on it. I call it three, two, one plus archive. Well, what does that mean? And it means three copies of your backup in two separate media, one of which should be offsite, preferentially in the cloud. Okay, three, two, one. As an example, you might be backing up to an external hard drive and then also having a set of backups on Google Drive or IDrive or whatever your cloud backup provider might be. So you got it. You got the three, two, one. Now, one quick side note, if you are doing something like external hard drives, once you're done with the backup, please make sure that you disconnect. You pull that USB cord out. 

Because if you leave this always connected, the ransomware, should you ever get hit, and let's knock on woodier and hope that that never happens. But I assure you there are a number of firms that have been hit over the years and it's getting worse and worse. But the ransomware is going to scan the network. And if it's sees that we have a backup drive here, it's going to encrypt the backup drive too. So it's not good. The goal is to have a good backup so that you can recover and restore data that's encrypted because IT will come in and just delete all this stuff and rebuild from the backup, and we get off to a fresh start. So that's the ultimate goal. 

Now, I sort of add this archive spin, which is okay, so I may have some... let's say I have one, two, three month backups and just sort of rotate if you will, and that frequency might work. Sometimes you want it to be a little more, sometimes it's daily, weekly, whatever your process. But you have these rotations. Well, I would suggest keeping occasionally one, if you will, pull it out of the rotation and keep it as an archive. 

So let's say you have month one, two, and three, but then periodically take one and just sit it out there and it'll eventually become 6, 9, 12 months old. And you can sort of rotate those a little bit too. Now, why do I like an idea like that? Well, some of these programs are designed very intentionally to sort of sit and they will infect backups and whatnot. Again, because they're trying to make sure you have nothing to rebuild from. So if you have some archives out there that are a little bit older, the thinking is, okay, if your current backups are all destroyed because again, are not available because it's encrypted and just useless, you may have something that's six months old, but at least you got everything, you can restore everything up to six months. You see, I'd rather lose six months worth of information than everything. So I sort of like that as an extra little sort of precaution. 

Okay, so that's the three, two, one plus archive. The new thinking is now three, two, one, one, and I'll explain that in a minute. I still might put an archive out there, but I'm going to make what the second one is sort of these archives. So let me explain. We have three backups, two media, one should be offsite, preferentially, in the cloud. The second one is what we call an immutable backup, I-M-M-U-T-A-B-L-E. Immutable backup. 

Now, what is an immutable backup? Well, it's interesting, and I'm going to have some notes here as we go through some of these things. But an immutable backup, it's basically a copy of your data that cannot be altered. It cannot be deleted or changed in any way, even by a system administrator, users, applications or systems that created the data. This is really locked down. And when you create this backup, you're going to put a clock on it, a time. And so it will remain if you will, locked for whatever time period you set. Now, can you appreciate what's happening here? So if you can't alter the data, you can't delete the data. Ransomware programs, wiper ware programs and things will be unable to affect that at all. 

So it's locked. And now you have the ability to make certain you're doing as much as you possibly can, in other words, to make sure you have a good viable backup. Now, one of the things that I like about this is, again, it could even prevent an accidental deletion by somebody doing something silly or some employee that you've had a falling out with and he or she wants to do a little damage and start delete things. It's not just ransomware, but I love this idea. So when you lock it too, we talk about it, and I just love this phrase, I guess. We talk about these backups as being worm protected now. An immutable backup is worm protected, and I just love that word. What does that mean? Well, it means... I got to look here for a second, I'm so excited. Write once, read many times, write... WORM. Write once, but you can read it as much as you want. The data is there, you just can't delete it, you can't change it, you can't encrypt it, you can't do anything with it as long as that lock is there. 

Now, eventually you want to... I would not set these locks if you go indefinitely because sooner or later, I assume you want to replace them with more current versions. And if you just keep building, so you have some cloud storage, but these backups can be fairly significant in size. And if you have these things out there year after year after year, so I would not block them up forever. I might think about six months, nine months, because that can become your archive. And so just maybe setting it maybe every year and just hold them for a year and let them sort of, once the lock expires, that clock expires, you can delete it. But I think that is an outstanding idea. I'm a big fan of immutable backups. 

Now, one thing to think about here, again, the temptation can be, well, if we take this step, we can start to relax a little more because we're always going to have a good backup. This is our guarantee, our insurance policy, if we ever get hit, we can recover. That's not necessarily the case, okay? There's no such thing as 100% guarantee. 

Just as an example, you heard me talk earlier about how ransomware can sit sometimes for extended periods of time, just infecting things. So your immutable backup, if the network has the infection already, so when you back it up, you're backing up the software that's going to encrypt everything. So there's just one example of how this isn't 100% perfect. But boy, it is as close as we can get, based on me. But in terms of what the IT world can do to try to help you recover and keep you from being taken out by some ransomware, this is as good as it gets right now. So I strongly encourage you to think about immutable backups. I will share, I have not had any real time to really dig into these programs in terms of making any type of recommendation. All I can say is these are separate providers. 

You can't just work with your regular whatever cloud backup program you typically have and say, I want to make this immutable. Now, that may change at some point, but right now, the companies that are doing this, as far as I'm aware, are all companies are specifically selling or offering this service. I would encourage you, if you want to look at this, just to speak with it because she, they will know your systems and can make some recommendations about what service or product might work best for you. But I really truly believe that immutable backups really are the way to go. And I see them, and I'll just be very honest here folks, in terms of what is happening in the world today, geopolitically, things are getting crazier and crazier. 

And there are things happening in the cyberspace. So I think the risk that we are talking about here are going to go up, and that is already supporting that. It's going up very, very rapidly. So I think this is why I want to talk about it right now. I think having some knowledge of is there something else I can yet do that really may help protect me as things just get wild here for a while that it might be worth doing? And you can't do that without knowledge. So that's number one. 

The second issue that we need to talk about is the Corporate Transparency Act. I don't know how many of you're familiar with the Act or not. And boy, this is not going to be a primer on on all the things that you need to know about the CTA. But let me just share a little bit because more of us as lawyers need to know about the CTA than realize, and I'll explain why here. But the Corporate Transparency Act was passed in 2021, and basically, it requires the disclosure of identifying information of people operating certain US-based business entities. And a key reporting requirement coming, in beginning of 2024, is unfortunately going to affect many small businesses. And it's my understanding that's somewhat unintentional, but it's where we're at. 

There's law firms, particularly the solo and small firm space are going to be caught up in this. That's just the way it is. Now, the ACT is really in response to just, a lot of things have been going on with money laundering, tax evasion, financing of terrorist organizations, et cetera. And so this act is one of the things done in response to try to cut down and get some additional information. So here's the interesting thing. Who needs to comply with this act? And it's a domestic reporting company, which is this term [inaudible 00:17:18] in the act. But basically, it's any company that is created by the filing of a document with a state Secretary of State, or similar office under the law of the state or even an Indian tribe. So it includes corporations, LLCs, LLPs, and the list goes on. 

There's some deadlines here. If the reporting company existed prior, so if you're firm, and obviously if you're in a firm now it's existed prior to 2024, you have until January 1st, 2025 to file your first... what do we call these BOIs. And it's just a beneficial ownership information report. And in terms of what's required to be reported and how you report this, it's fairly straightforward. But I first off want you to hear that a lot of you that are in the solo and small firm space are not exempt from this. The act actually has, I think 23, 20... let me look here. Yeah, 23 specific types of entities that are excluded from reporting. None of them are small law firms and other types of small businesses. Now, the one thing that could get some of you out this reporting requirement is if you happen to qualify as a large operating company. 

Now, what does that mean? You need to employ more than 20 employees who are working in the United States for more than 30 hours per week. So you have to have 20 employees that are all US-based and work 38 plus hours a week. That your office or your firm is physically here in the United States, and that you report more than five million in gross income and federal income taxes each year. So if you meet those three requirements, you're considered a large corporation. A lot of law firms aren't going to meet that. But you know what your operation looks like, so there may be a possibility of not having to comply. 

Again, the first thing I need you or want you to be aware of is that you yourself may be subject to this act. If you happen to be formed, and I've actually been talking with some lawyers who are in the process of forming law firms, and if they form their law firm after January 1st, '24, any business has just 30 days to do this report, and it'll be an annual report. So some awareness there. 

Why do I bring it up? I bring it up, one, again, so you don't naively miss an obligation to report because there can be some significant or serious consequences for not reporting. But I also want to talk to any or all of you who are out there that may have clients. You've set up some businesses or you will be setting up businesses. You need to understand the Corporate Transparency Act, who needs to report, what needs to be reported, when does the report need to be made. 

I guess if you really want to go in this direction, you certainly could... it's a new service that you could add and help all these clients that would be subject to the act to follow through on the reporting. And if you want to go there, hey, great, that's awesome. Obviously, don't dabble here, come up to speed. I'm just giving you the lightest stuff. I have not done major research onto this, and I'm still coming up to speed myself. But I've learned enough that we need to be aware. 

But I could also see similar saying, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to be responsible for this. Because think about there's an ethics opinion the ABA put out. I think it's a Formal Opinion when a 491 came out, I believe, about two years ago. And again, it talks about that as lawyers, we cannot allow our clients to use our services in furtherance of a crime or fraud. There's some language and rules too, RPC 1.2 has some language along those lines. The opinion made it clear that we can't even turn a blind eye here. We have to have some responsibility, we have to be asking questions. 

So if you want to dig down in the CTA and then also look in terms of managing risk, I encourage you to take a look at the Formal Opinion 491, and then think about the rules. 1.1, competency. If we are going to be competent, we have to know what questions to ask to make sure that we're not helping someone launder money. 1.2 is in play. We just talked about that, we can't allow our services to be used to commit or furtherance of crime or fraud. 1.3, diligence is going to be in play. 1.4, we have an obligation to communicate. Hey, this is not okay, explain the legal ramifications of the things that you're doing, if they refuse to follow your advice and want to continue on with some type of fraud or crime, 1.16 is going to be in play, withdraw and get out. 1.13 is going to be in play in terms of just representing the entity. 8.4, misconduct is going to be in play. 

So there are a lot of rules here that we need to be aware of so that we're making informed decisions. Do we want the responsibility to assist all these clients in filing this, the BOI, the business ownership information, report? Because there's all kinds of identifying information and it needs to be accurate. Then if you are lied to or something's incorrect, that can create some exposure for you. So I would want to be a little concerned about that. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm good. Hey, if you really want to come up to speed and you feel very competent in helping all your clients do this year in and year out, God bless, go for it. If not, I would want to at least make sure that clients, particularly current clients, are made aware of the act, and then I would want to document that you are not going to take on that responsibility to help them comply with the requirements under the act. 

I would just not want to leave this sitting out there unaddressed because particularly, if we have some ongoing relationships with any of these clients, and that's fairly common, and they're harmed at some point by not filing this document, they're going to turn to you and say, "What the heck? You're the lawyer. This is your fault. I had no idea. I thought you're looking out for me and my best interest or our company's." You see where this can go. And a claim like that's going to have some legs, folks. It really could. So I strongly encourage you. Let's think about, be intentional about what we want to do. Do we want to advise, not advise, help with these forms, don't help with these forms? And then document that the client has been informed and that we either are or we are not. So those are the two things that are the November knows. 

So I hope you found something useful from today's just ramblings of a risk guy. And as always, if you have any questions or concerns about either of these topics or anything else that I might be able to assist you with, please don't hesitate to reach out. My email address is MBass@ALPSInsurance. ALPSInsurance.com. And you don't need to be an ALPS insurer to visit with me. There's no cost and visit with me. Again, I'm not a risk manager for ALPS. I'm hired by ALPS to be your risk manager. So that's it, folks. Bye-bye. Have a good one. 

 

ALPS In Brief - Episode 74: Why Cyber Liability Insurance is Essential

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS, and welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. 

Okay, today it's just me, and we're going to talk about managing cyber crime risks and really looking at the whys behind what it does in terms of obtaining cyber liability insurance. And I really want to dig into this a little deeper. I still get a lot of questions about insurance, what it does, what it doesn't do, and is it necessary, and the list goes on and on and on. So let's hit that topic. 

Before we jump into some of the specifics of using insurance to manage your risk, I want to set the stage again, I always start my cyber programs with some information. Let's look at headlines from 2022. 

In 2022, 255 million phishing attacks occurred in just six months. Now this is a report done by SlashNext, and they analyzed billions of link based URLs, attachments, natural language messages in email, mobile, and browser channels over six months and that's what they found. And that's a 61% increase in phishing attacks compared to 2021. That's pretty significant. They also recorded a 50% increase in attacks on mobile devices. And I really ask that you pay attention and try to appreciate the significance of that. Cyber criminals really are moving their attacks to mobile and personal communication channels to reach employees. The big attacks right now are scams and credential theft. They're the top of the list or the desired outcome with these mobile attacks. And a lot of this will be a phishing and smishing, using SMS text messaging as the attack avenue for a phishing attack, if you will. Smishing is combining SMS and the word phishing, so that's how you get to that. 

The FBI has reported that cyber criminals are tampering with QR codes in an attempt to steal victim funds. A lot of people will say, "Well, I'm not going to be that exposed to this stuff, and how frequently is this all this going on?" I got to tell you, it's getting a little crazy out there. Remember QR codes, for instance during the pandemic, particularly as things started to open back up and you go out to restaurants. And instead of handing you a menu, they'd have that little QR code, that little box that has all the dots and dashes and little squares and things in it. And you would scan that and it would take you to the menu or a webpage. Well, a lot of these can be faked. People will just create a QR code sticker and put it over. 

Think at a parking lot and you go to scan something to pay your bill, your parking fee, and if you're misdirected to a site that looks like the site that you would expect to pay your parking bill for the evening, but it's not, you've just turned over your account information to somebody that doesn't have your best interest in mind. We've seen it in parking tickets, creating fake parking tickets. And again, it'll have the local parking authority logo and the little yellow envelope and they stick it on your windshield. And again, ah, good lord, I got a parking ticket. They make it very convenient to scan the code. It's not real. So we got to be careful. 

We're even seeing QR codes being sent via email pretending to be a multifactor authentication process. And the emails may even mimic corporate logos, law firm logos, it could be anything. And people are falling prey to this. So it's just another crazy unusual attack vector that a lot of folks out there really aren't aware of. 

There's also a report that 79 million malicious domains were flagged in the first half of 2022. Please understand what that means. 79 million fake websites. Banks, could be anything, anything at all. And again, they're going to look very, very similar to the real thing. That's 79 million opportunities for anyone at your firm, you or any other employee or attorney practicing at your firm. It's just an opportunity for them to do something innocently, naively, but it's just getting scammed, getting taken advantage of. 

The final thing I'll throw at you here in 2022, the A Legal Technology Survey results reported that 27% of participating law firms reported experiencing a data breach of some kind. 

So I try to share all this to get your attention, because we need to always remember that IT support isn't the last line of defense. You and whoever else has access to your office network is the last line of defense. And this has consequences, and it really does. The consequences, you really need to care because as a lawyer, you are a valuable target, particularly those of you who practice in the solo and small firm space. I know a lot of lawyers don't believe that. They just think we're not going to be on anybody's radar. It's a rural practice, as an example. Well, come on, there is no such thing as rural on the internet. 

And you're considered in the so small firm space sort of the low hanging fruit because the cyber criminals know that you don't have typically the financial wherewithal and oftentimes the deep understanding of everything that could be done. I think the financial wherewithal piece is probably the bigger piece because you just can't throw the same kind of money that a company like Microsoft does around their cloud, protecting your data there as an example. So you're sort of viewed as the low hanging fruit. 

And you really need to care because I got to tell you, it's only a matter of time. Robert Mueller, if you remember, the former director of the FBI, famously said, "There are only two types of companies, those that have been hacked and those that will be hacked." But almost actually at the time he said that, that kind of statement was out of date. It really should be something more like there are only two types of companies, those that have been hacked and those that don't know they've been hacked. I mean, I'm not trying to be melodramatic about it, I'm just sharing. It's not if, it really is when. 

Now this presentation really isn't about all the things that you can do to prevent becoming a victim. I have lots of other materials, podcasts, CLEs, webinar, all sorts of stuff that can go there. I will share that there is a checklist, a cybersecurity checklist available, if you have any interest, on our website. Just go to the homepage and under resources, scroll down a little bit, you'll see sample forms of checklist. Check there and you'll go in and there'll be another link to checklist and the cybersecurity checklist is there, and that might be useful to you. 

But I do want to discuss the risk associated with not being proactive with your cybersecurity efforts. And just as an aside, this really in terms of cybersecurity, proactive efforts, that really does need to include social engineering awareness training, even if you're just a true solo and it's you. You need to stay abreast of what's happening. So I'll just throw that out there. 

Okay. Some of the risks your firm faces by someone, anyone at your firm, not doing their part. This really is an all hands on deck kind of situation. Well, let me just read some of the things that can go wrong in terms of the types of risk. I mean, we're sort of talking about the legal and financial risks, but there's legal liability to others, employees, clients, third parties, for loss, theft, or unauthorized disclosure of personally identifiable information. And there may be legal liability for the theft of client funds. Think wire fraud or business email compromise, being tricked and scammed into sending typically larger sums of money to the wrong bank and just a cyber criminal. Legal liability for the theft or loss of third party corporate information. Being subject to regulatory action for the failure to comply with state breach notification laws. Having to cover the costs of responding to and recovering from a breach. Damage to your reputation. Loss of revenue due to a breach. These are things to take pretty seriously. I mean, this can get crazy fairly quickly. 

I would encourage you to pay attention to this. The typical costs of a network breach for small businesses is currently around 200,000. And I will share the device theft, think of smartphone, jump drives, laptops, et cetera. So device theft of these mobile types of things. Wire fraud and ransomware are really common problems we see for law firms in terms of the lawyers and the firms that we insure. 

So as an aside, and just again keep your attention in play here, there could be a coverage problem. Think about, a lot of lawyers have fallen prey to various types of financial fraud. But let's just talk about this in the context of wire fraud, being tricked into sending money to the wrong bank because a routing number has been changed and you weren't aware that that change occurred and didn't do anything to try to catch it. And the lawyers will immediately call in and say, "This is malpractice. I got to file a claim." Well, I'm not so sure that that's the case. Theft of funds is a property loss, and malpractice actually doesn't cover property losses. 

So wire fraud, theft of funds, can be in many instances an uncovered loss if the only way you're trying to ensure for that is through a malpractice policy. Read your policy. This is not unique to ALPS. These policies weren't intended or designed to cover cyber crime. Now, we'll explore that a little bit more here in a bit, but generally, I mean, that's not the purpose behind it. It's really to cover you for professional negligence in the practice of law. 

Okay. Now, let's talk about the fallout. So let's assume, I'm not going to look at this never happens, but we'll see, that there is some type of breach. And I'm not talking about wire fraud here, I'm talking about a data breach so that someone really is in the system. What does that mean? How does this play? Well, you need to understand, we're going to start, if you will, with the response and system recovery. So someone needs to come in, typically a forensic team, IT forensic team, that typically is not your IT support. These folks typically know a great deal about how to protect you, but often don't have the skillset to do the forensic piece once there is a breach. That's a different group. 

So they're going to come in and they need to understand the breach, try to figure out what happened and terminate it if it's still going on. There may be programs that have encrypted your system and as you try to clean that up may still be there and that can encrypt again. So they have to terminate, try to clean up. This team is going to try to figure out the who, the what, the when, the where, the how. Really understand. 

Well, while all this is going on, you don't have access to your network. They need to image typically the entire network. And that's something that doesn't happen... The preserving the evidence of the crime, and it helps them evaluate and understand, and that doesn't happen in half an hour. So you're not going to have access to your systems and your data while this is going on. Now, how long can that take? It depends on the type of breach and what's going on. If it's just a lost laptop that has some passwords on it, they could probably do a remote kill and try to evaluate was that laptop and any passwords used to access the network? So that may be relatively brief. But if there is a major ransomware attack, as an example, and everything's encrypted, it could be days to even several weeks. It just depends.But we need to think through that, and how would that impact your practice? Some it may not be too bad, others, it could really be a pretty devastating event. 

So once all that's done, you understand, okay, man, they're starting to build the system back. Phew, we're going to get through this. It's still not over. Every jurisdiction in the United States has their own unique breach notification law and you need to comply with these. And you need to understand too what states are in play. It's not about, well, I practice here in Florida and that's it. If in your database there's information from clients and third parties, and just the list goes on and on, of people in multiple surrounding states, you may have to comply with those state breach notification laws as well. Typically, there's some cost of notifying all the people that have been impacted by this. The cost of compliance. Do you want to pay for credit monitoring? The list just goes on and on. Reputation management, et cetera. This can get expensive. So that can be managed obviously, but I want you to hear and understand, a breach can be significant. It's not just the loss of money, whether that's a ransomware payment or wire fraud, there's lots of other things that can go on. 

And you need to think about, there's all kinds of information in your files. There's just gobs of information out there. So again, don't minimize the consequences of a data breach. 

Now the good news of course, and where I said I'd go with this was, that you can manage this risk with the purchase of a cyber liability insurance policy. And of course, I would always couple that with following through on cybersecurity best practices. You don't get a reference to a lot of things in that checklist. There are other proactive things you can do, making sure that there's robust security software running on all the mobile devices at work or anything that used for work. So work from home folks, if they're using personal devices, we need to protect these things. But let's focused on this insurance piece. 

At the outset, I do want to share that the purchase of cyber insurance, depending on how much coverage you'd like, the type of coverage you're looking for, how big your firm is, this discussion, sort of tangential discussion on security best practices, getting back to that checklist, is important because an insurer may make it a requirement that you do certain things. You may have to have multifactor authentication in play. They're just going to be looking and asking questions about, what is your security posture? What steps have you taken? What processes are in play? Do you use out-of-band communications as an example to verify the accuracy of all wiring instructions prior to wiring funds? So there are a variety of things that can be important here. 

So the accuracy of the information you provide in terms of the application going through the process is going to be very, very important. You don't mislead. Don't lie. Say, "Well, I know this is what they want to hear, this is what they want us to do, and we try, but this is our intent." If post breach an insurer learns that you in fact weren't doing all that you said you were doing on the prevention front, you may have a serious, serious coverage problem. So I do want to focus here just a side moment on these security best practices. That can be very, very significant. 

But what basically does cyber liability insurance provide? What do you get for your premium dollar? It's really looking at providing coverage for the type of losses I had talked about a bit. Commonly, you're going to see these policies cover business interruption, as an example. So that would be covering the loss of income and forensic expenses sustained during the period of restoration after the breach. Now, that coverage may be contingent upon a short waiting period. Media liability. So that's things like copyright or trademark infringement, malicious defacement of a website, and liable. 

Data recovery. So we're talking about the reasonable and necessary costs incurred in order to regain access to, replace, or restore data, or the reasonable and necessary costs incurred in order to determine that the data cannot be accessed, replaced, or restored. So I think ransomware as an example. And then sometimes you might even pay for a decryption key that don't do much, or you might've been impacted with wiperware and your data's just been erased and destroyed. So there's some costs in terms of trying to figure out, what can we get back and is it doable? 

Privacy breach response. So that's the expenses associated with complying with relevant breach notification laws. We had talked about that. Look for a policy that includes coverage for the cost of privacy counsel, forensic investigators, and notification and credit monitoring services. 

It will also provide typically, again, data and network liability. Now, these are the damages and expenses related to claims resulting from a breach of data in your control or a third party, and damages and expenses resulting from a security breach. Examples of a security breach would include unauthorized access or use of network resources, a denial-of-service attack, an insertion of malicious code, if somebody downloads something and it's maybe a key log or just tracking what's going on your network, and the transmission of malicious code from your network, so someone's using your network to harm somebody else. 

Crisis management. This is the expense associated with bringing in outside experts to investigate the incident and fix the problem. And with some policies can include the cost of a public relations consultant. 

Cyber extortion. This is the expense associated with investigations and paying for the return of or gaining back access to data. Now, one thing to be aware with cyber extortion, it is pretty common in the cyber insurance space that you need permission in advance from the insurer to make that ransom payment. It has to do with regulations that monies can't be paid to nation states. You don't want to pay the Iraqis, as an example, their military. And they're very involved in ransomware. So there's some issues there. But I'm just making you aware of that little side note, but typically money is available in terms of reimbursement. 

Fraudulent instruction. This is a loss resulting from the transfer of funds after relying in good faith on an instruction that was a misrepresentation of a material fact. Now again, coverage may be contingent upon an out-of-band communication taking place. Again, if you're not familiar, an out-of-band communication is, let's say that the wire fraud instructions come via fax. So that's the inbound communication channel. An out-of-band communication channel means we changed the communication channel for an outbound communication in an attempt to verify the accuracy of the information that was received in the inbound communication. So incoming fax, wire instructions. I pick up the phone with a previously verified number from whoever sent the fax, and I will read the information, Hey, Sue. I just want to verify, thanks for sending over the fax, got everything. Is this information correct?" 

Because these things can and have been and will continue to be intercepted and changed. So if a call comes in, it could be a deepfake audio. And I'm telling you folks, this has happened. You're not talking to who you think you're talking to so you have the information. So use a different communication channel to reach back out and confirm. That's an out-of-band communication. That's what we mean by that. 

Some other benefits from cyber liability insurance. It can cover regulatory defense and penalties. These are the expenses and penalties that an insurer is obligated to pay as a result of a regulatory proceeding that arose due to a data or security... My tongue is getting twisted today. A security breach. 

And finally, payment card liabilities. So it might be PCI fines, the payment card industry PCI fines, costs, expenses. An insurer is legally obligated to pay as a result of a data or security breach. 

So these are some of the common coverages you will typically find in a cyber liability policy. And again, that's some pretty thorough stuff and can really help you manage the risks and get through this, in again, the event that there is a significant data breach of some type. 

Now, a few things to keep in mind and just be aware of. There are going to be exclusions for war and state sponsored attacks. I would think that wouldn't be much of a surprise. But the current Russia-Ukraine war is one obvious example as to why. NotPetya, which was... It looked like ransomware. Russia released it into the wild prior to the onset of the war, but leading up to it, in an attempt to really do some serious damage in Ukraine. But it just spread and went global. And that NotPetya was what we call wiperware. It looks like ransomware, acts like ransomware, but the intent is not to hold your data ransom for some payment, the intent is to wipe your data, just get rid of everything. That's not good. And it is nasty, nasty stuff. 

Also be aware that these policies cover data. They don't cover hardware. If you have a lightning strike and your server's just toast, a cyber liability policy isn't going to respond. That would be something you'd cover under your general insurance, your business owner's policy or your commercial package, whatever that might be. 

Some common exclusions just to be aware of, breaches that occurred prior to the effective date of the policy. Now there's a growing move in this space to kind of be a little more liberal with that in terms of this insurance space because it just just very difficult to try to figure out when these things occurred. 

But if you are breached and you know it, and you come and buy a cyber liability policy, the house is already on fire, that's not going to work. You would have to have absolutely no idea that a breach occurred. Because sometimes these people can be in your system for months and sometimes even a year or more. That's just the way it is. 

Insider attacks. If somebody in your employer, another attorney in the firm, just makes bad decisions for whatever reason and does a lot of damage, again, insider attack, that's not going to be covered. 

And some policies, think about what I'm about to share here, phishing scams are often not covered or maybe subject to a sublimit. And really what that's talking about and getting to is yet again, wire fraud business email compromise. It's the loss of funds. Other examples might be someone who stripped it and buying a bunch of gift cards to pay something. Turning over credit card information. 

You might ask if there's a social engineering endorsement available that might pull some of this back in. And again, if there is coverage under the policy, typically it's a sublimit and it's not going to be as high as the general limits of the overall cyber liability coverage that you might purchase. So for example, let's say you buy $250,000 in coverage, the sublimit on these kinds of theft of funds might be just 10% of that, so 25 grand. You could also look at getting some coverage under a crime policy, and that's probably the most effective way to try to get this covered. But every carrier is going to be different. I'll come back to that here in a moment. 

Also, an attack resulting from a failure to correct a known vulnerability. So if you are continuing to use outdated systems because hey, Windows 8 still works wonderfully, even though you know that it's no longer supported and there's no security patches and up where, as a result of that, you're not keeping systems current and patched and there's a breach. If you're using unpatched systems, outdated systems, that may void coverage for anything. So you need to just be aware. 

There are different types, different ways I guess to say, to get into this. A lot of malpractice carriers have what I would say an add-on. It's sort of in part.... Maybe the best way to say is it's some type of cyber endorsement to a malpractice policy. And that's not bad, don't get me wrong. It's better than nothing. But understand these endorsements, these add-ons, often come with lower limits and less broad coverage. And part of the reason that that's the case is due to limited, and at times even no, underwriting being involved in that cyber insurance piece. You can opt in. Sometimes it just is automatically there depending on the carrier. So again, it's important to have some type of cyber coverage, but I need you to understand if you're not really reading these policies, these endorsements, and really understanding what they do and don't do, you might be running with some assumptions. I really prefer to see a freestanding cyber policy. 

And just as a aside real quick. I shared that this add-on and the automatic, if you will, endorsement is in some malpractice policies. You'll also see that at times in some business owner package policies as well. But again, the same issue is in play. It's not as austere. Just not as broad. Limits aren't going to be as high. So I would encourage you to look at standalone coverage. 

How much? Boy, that is a tough one. I would say in the solo and small firm space, I would want to at a minimum be looking at a quarter to half a million, and understanding that we're talking about the expenses and consequences of a data breach as opposed to theft of funds. I'm going to look at theft of funds perhaps at a higher amount separately, just depending on how much money you're moving through your accounts. 

And also, just as an aside, some of the cyber policies, even the standalone policies, will cover theft of your funds, but not theft of client funds. So if money is accidentally wired, firm money wired to a wrong vendor making a payment or some sort out of the operating account, okay, cyber will cover that. You wire 850,000 of client funds out, the cyber policy may not cover that at all. So you really need to ask and look into this. Because it's again another reason to look at a crime policy or a crime endorsement and see what you can do there. You may need to have several different policies in play even to get to this total that whatever you're looking at. 

If you can get to a million, even better. But again, I don't know enough about your individual practices and firms in terms of how valuable is the data. How much do we have here? That's something you're going to have to maybe talk with an underwriter or a marketing person with, business development person, with your insurer, to really gets a better ideas of what to do there. 

The final thing I want to throw at you is just know that these policies differ, at times substantially, between insurers. So it's worth at times shopping the market a little bit. Prices can be quite variable as well. A lot of the variability goes with just what coverage is being offered. If you have a policy that's going to cover your money and client money as an example, that's going to be more expensive than a policy that doesn't cover any loss of funds in terms of wire fraud and these phishing scams. So again, you have to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. 

But know that this is a very dynamic market relative to life insurance and lots of other... They've been around for decades and decades. This is new stuff. And the risks are changing almost daily. It's very difficult for an insurer to really understand what their exposure's going to look like two or three years down the road, based on what the risk analysis is today. Who knows? AI as an example. How is this going to change things? How significant will deepfakes become? They are already in play, so please... But I'm just trying to share, can you appreciate how challenging it is? An insurer has to set premium on an unknown risk. It's changing and evolving very quickly. So that's why you will experience and see great differences perhaps in coverage, differences in premium, et cetera. So it's really worth sitting down and talking with someone about how to move forward and what might be best for your situation. 

So that's really all I have on cyber liability. I hope you found something of value. And I like at times to go back and say, "What are the takeaways here?" And the biggest takeaway for me, if I'm sitting in your shoes, if you already have not done so, I strongly encourage you to consider adding cyber liability insurance to your insurance portfolio. In my mind, I just honestly have seen too much. And I truthfully can say I've been involved post breach with a number of firms in a number of different situations, and more than a few really never recovered. The financial hit was just too much, and that was that. So I want to make sure, my hope is that you hear, that there's some learning that we can obtain from the experiences of others. So I'll leave it at that. 

Again, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte. If you ever have a need, desire, concern that you want to talk about, please don't hesitate to reach out. My email is mbass@alpsinsurance.com. You do not need to be an insured to visit with me. There's no cost. I'm hired to be a risk manager for the bar at large. I'm hired to be your risk manager. So if there's ever anything I can do on cybersecurity, explaining insurance, and a lot of lawyers have questions about legal malpractice insurance and other types of coverage, happy to talk. Ethics, malpractice avoidance, [inaudible 00:41:54], whatever, I'm here. That's it. Bye-bye all.