The ALPS In Brief Podcast

ALPS In Brief — Episode 30: Solo and Small Firms Should Make the Leap to Cybersecurity. It Matters.

Do you assume you don’t need to worry about being the target of a cyber attack because your business is too small? Often times, solo and small firms are seen as low-hanging fruit and are specifically targeted by hackers looking to gain valuable information. Solo attorney Suzan Herskowitz offers advice and insight into how she made the leap to becoming cyber secure to protect her firm and her clients’ information.

Transcript:

MARK:

Hello. This Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager with ALPS and welcome to the latest episode of ALPs in Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Today I'm very pleased to have as my guest Suzan Herskowitz, a practitioner from, is it Winchester, am I right Suzan?

SUZAN:

Winchester, Virginia.

MARK:

Winchester, Virginia. I've been through that area. I can say it's certainly not a mega-city.

SUZAN:

No.

MARK:

Quite the opposite in fact. Susan, or Suzan pardon me, I am most interested, and we've had a discussion last fall about challenges that solo lawyers face in terms of trying to be cyber secure, just the challenges, and you have made some changes in recent times. So we're going to have a conversation and talk about the challenges and what all happened in your practice.

But before we jump into that, may we take a moment or two and just, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?

SUZAN:

Sure. I have been practicing law since 1986 but I am a bit of a nomad and I've moved around so I'm licensed in four states: Texas, Florida, West Virginia, and then Virginia, in that order. This go around if you will, I have been practicing solo since the end of 2004.

MARK:

Okay. Can we start, maybe just sharing a little bit about the challenges you face in terms of technology as a solo practitioner.
Suzan: Well obviously, you know as a solo we don't have the same financial ability that some larger law firms would have, just by its size.

MARK:

Right.

SUZAN:

I know that when I started going to the ALPS epic seminars and you scared me half to death I was working with a local company and over time I found that they couldn't keep up with what ALPS wanted us to do and then what the bar wanted us to do as the cyber security threats seemed to become more and more real. Not only for large companies but for small little guys like me as well.

MARK:

Yes.

SUZAN:

So about a year ago I jumped ship to a slightly larger company to handle all of my IT work and obviously a bigger monthly bill for that as well. But it's meant doing an upgrade on everything from my router so it had better encryption and was more secure, upgraded computer system so that I was using business computers, business laptops instead of just ones that I would buy at the big box store. All kinds of things to make sure that I had more security just in the hardware, let alone the software.

MARK:

Right. One of the things I think about, just in terms of responding to what you're sharing here a little bit, for me it underscores there's a difference between, and I got a couple points up here in my head, but there's a difference between IT support and IT service provider that can bring to the table additional security practices, best practices into play and I think that's a real challenge. Not only for solo practitioners but small businesses, even large businesses struggle with that one at times. So I like hearing, as a Risk Manager, that you've made this jump to a company now that really not only can provide the IT support but understands the needs of a lawyer in terms of appropriate security and taking the steps to put that into place.

May I ask sort of what drove you to make this change? I hear that some of it is sort of the scare factor but you know, I can scare people awfully well and I still find at times a lot of lawyers don't yet make that change. Were there other factors in play? What drove the process for you?

SUZAN:

I tell people all the time, I'm very risk adverse in most things.

MARK:

Yes.

SUZAN:

So I go to your seminar year, after year, after year which I'm very grateful for, and I would talk to my IT person who kept saying this isn't going to happen to you. You're just a small fry out in Winchester, they're not going to come after you. You would recommend things and he would say I wouldn't need it and the next year the bar would require it.

MARK:

Okay.

SUZAN:

Remember I'm licensed in four States so I'm getting this information from multiple sources, not just the Virginia State bar, I'm getting it from other avenues as well, and they're all saying the same thing. I try to keep up on things. I've never been afraid of technology. My stepmom used to work in the field years ago. Even being up on technology, I realized I was falling behind and it wasn't enough for somebody to say, ‘we don't have to worry about that,’ when I could plainly see when I went to your seminars as well as one that the bar put on itself one year, that I definitely needed to look at some of this to the extent I could based on the size of my business.

MARK:

Okay. I like that. One of the thoughts you shared that I really appreciate you bringing up, and I hear this repeatedly, but the fact that your IT support person says it, you don't need to worry about this stuff because you're too small, it just kind of blows my mind at times. I really want to take an opportunity here just to underscore to our listeners, size in terms of your business is irrelevant on the cyber crime space, for lack of a better word. In fact, I think smaller business, small firms, individuals in so many ways, and particularly lawyers because of the information, valuable information we have on our networks, we're really viewed as the low hanging fruit and are specifically targeted. So this belief that you're too small to be on anybody's radar couldn't be more wrong.

SUZAN:

What also happened, and this is what my final decision to make the leap was, was a title company that I know, not a large one, got hacked. They took forever to get their systems back because they didn't have the right backups.

MARK:

Interesting.

SUZAN:

I don't know what the whole scenario was as far as what they had to go through, if the FBI came, because I've heard that that can happen and other issues, but they're a title company. They run hundreds of thousands of dollars through their accounts at all times, and that kind of woke me.

MARK:

Okay.

SUZAN:

That a local company, not a big one, not a big named one with multiple branches, got hacked. And the trouble they went through. And I literally, just within weeks, had made the leap.

MARK:

Would you say now, being on the other side of this with a bigger company a better service as you've been talking about here, do you feel like the journey has been worth it? Is the expense worth it?

SUZAN:

Definitely.

MARK:

Are you finding it to be tremendously more expensive?

SUZAN:

It is more expensive, but it has been worth my peace of mind. There's this little popup that comes up periodically on the desktop, that basically is a wave, that says hey we're monitoring. Once a week they call me and say can we pop in on your computers at about seven o'clock tonight to do a system update, and they update everything, programs. They're always monitoring. I thought I had been hacked and they went nope. It's just phishing, just delete it.

MARK:

Okay yeah.

SUZAN:

So I have that. And then of course they do the other end of things of I don't know why we don't have any wifi and the connectivity is down, can you guys fix this. They do that as well. But on the cyber security side I find that they have three redundant backups.

MARK:

Okay yeah.

SUZAN:

I just feel better that knowing that my systems have so many backups, that they're always monitoring, that it isn't like when I had been told with my old company, if anything happens we can get you back to within a week of where you were. And I'm thinking a week? You know how much money there is in a week?

MARK:

Right, right. Okay.

Have you done any planning on your own or in conjunction with the security support, IT support that you have here in terms of planning for the unexpected. I guess the question is, what happens if you are attacked? Do you see where I'm trying to go? Disaster recovery planning?

SUZAN:

I'm not really sure what I need to do on that to tell you the truth. I think that with my IT people, because they have a whole notebook for me.

MARK:

Okay.

SUZAN:

I've seen the notebook, I know it exists, that between me and them that I can get back up and running quickly. They've kind of promised that, so I'm kind of taking it on faith in that regard that they really will get me back up and running.

I will tell you that recently I did lose my internet, my email, long story, and they had me back up as soon as we figured out what the problem was. They had me moved to a different server, they had my email running, they had my web page back up. I basically lost my domain. It's a long story. So I wasn't getting email, nobody could see my website.

MARK:

Yeah this isn't good.

SUZAN:

It was kind of a bit of a nightmare, and they got me back up like within a couple of hours they had me running.

MARK:

Very good. Very good.

SUZAN:

Yes I had to pay a few hundred dollars more than my regular fee because I went over my allotted time, but gosh I mean, what would I have done without it?

MARK:

May I ask, is this a local company that you're working with?
Suzan: It happens to be local, but with people that have long years in I believe military IT.

MARK:

Ah. Okay, got it. One of the things that worries me also as a risk guy, you know I look at a lot of data, read a lot of articles, it's overwhelming at times to just try and stay current with this stuff, as I know you can relate to, but you see a lot of businesses, to include law firms, if and when they get hit with some kind of major attack, many of them do not survive. The financial hit can be pretty severe. Have you thought about that? Is there a safety net that you've put into place?

SUZAN:

I actually have ALPS cyber defense insurance.

MARK:

Oh! Okay.

SUZAN:

I did talk to my commercial guy and he looked at your policy and said stay with it.

MARK:

Well okay.

SUZAN:

It's as good or better than anything he's seen. I'm not saying that because it's you. He just told me that point blank. He said you stay with what you have.

MARK:

And I really appreciate your sharing that and we do pride ourselves in bringing a quality product to market. I can say that when we initially put this policy together in conjunction with Beasley, we designed it for the unique needs of lawyers and law firms, so I am proud of that. But I'm not trying to sell insurance.

SUZAN:

And I didn't mean it that way. I literally asked my commercial insurance person, do you have as good or better policy and he said no.

MARK:

Yeah. Well, that's awesome. It's great to hear. One of the things I like again about you bringing this up too though, is so many people just mistakenly believe, or perhaps mistakenly assume, that oh if I ever have a problem with my computer, we get hit or something, my general commercial business package, Vista's covered under all these policies we're going to have in place. And I do think it's important to point out, no that's not true. It is possible to insure for cyber breaches of various types whether it's ransomware or just getting hacked and your website goes down, there are all kinds of exposures that can come up here. But you do need to go out and buy what we call in the industry, just a cyber liability policy. So for those of you out there listening, if you're not aware these policies exist, now you are and please if you don't have the coverage in place, I strongly encourage you to shop the market and see what you can find here because cyber breaches can be very, very costly.

Do you feel like you've reached the, I don't know, I guess the end of the journey? Do you still feel that there's more to do?

SUZAN:

Oh yeah! I talked to my IT guy, I'm always sending him emails every so often. I'll read an article and say do we have this? Do I need this? Should we talk about this? Sometimes he says yes and other times he say you're covered.

MARK:

Yeah. What resources do you have out there? What keeps you current? The same kind of thing, the CLE's, communications in the bar?

SUZAN:

CLE's, various bar things, I do like to read you know various online materials that may or may not be law related. What's new in tech.

MARK:

Is there anything you would do differently?

SUZAN:

I probably wouldn't have been so nonchalant about it all the years ago that I was. Maybe I was lucky. I'm much more proactive about it now than I was then. I'm more aware of it now. I notice when I get an email that looks weird. I don't click on almost anything, even if I get something that appears to be from my bank I go to the bank website and then log in from there and see if I really do have a secure message.

MARK:

Right there is a tip everybody should pay close attention to. That's exactly how you should be doing it.
Suzan, one thing I have not discussed with you in the past, do you have employees or is it just you?

SUZAN:

I do, and I'm lucky that my employee, who's very young, is going through his bachelors degree in cyber security.

MARK:

I love it. Okay.

SUZAN:

So he's really up on all of that stuff and sometimes I ask him for advice. Like what did you learn in school? Is there anything I need to know? So I'm not dealing with someone who's cavalier about things there either.

MARK:

The reason I ask, and I just love your story here of how this has all played out for you, that's precious, but so many people don't realize too that in spite of all the precautions, the IT service provider you're working with is taking care of in terms of VPN's and just patches and updates and doing all the wonderful things they're doing, we also have to realize that as users we are sort of the weak link, and I do want to underscore to the degree that again those of you listening have employees also with access to the tech tools of your law firm, we do need to provide some education. Suzan you understand how to recognize a phishing attack. We also need to train our employees how to recognize a phishing attack and to delete things, and to pick up the phone and call the bank directly. It's a two-way street. We have to work in partnership with the security companies that we're working with.
Any closing comments? Any final thoughts?

SUZAN:

Just that I recognize that it is an expense and you have to make maybe some adjustments somewhere else, whatever works for you whether it means buying cheaper paper, or finding a different vendor for laser jet ink to make up the difference in the money. I don't know what you have to do to do it, but I do think it was worthwhile for me to know that I am maybe not bulletproof, but I'm certainly a lot safer than I was.

MARK:

Well I really appreciate your taking the time to visit with me today. The message, the takeaway for me, and why I wanted you to share a bit of your story here, is that as a risk guy who travels the country and works with law firms of all shapes and sizes, I hear over and over and over again that the solo, small firm crowd sometimes they feel overwhelmed and I like your story in the sense that it took you a little bit to get there, but you realized this is really not something that's optional. You're a success story in that you went out, you jumped ship, you realized the IT you initially had in place was just IT and not really taking care of the security piece in the way you felt it should be, you jumped ship, we spent a little more money but we get there. You feel that the journey was very well worth it, so good stuff.

SUZAN:

And if I might say one final thing is that yes while it costs more money, it was worth outsourcing it and not having to be the one to worry about whether I was updated, and whether I had the backup done, or having somebody call and say, hey you might have been hacked can you look at that? No I don't want to look at that, I want you to look at that.

MARK:

Right. You need to practice law!
Suzan: I have to practice law.

MARK:

That's right. Very good, okay. Once again Suzan, thank you very much. To those of you listening, I hope you found something of value in today's podcast and please don't hesitate to reach out to me any time. My email address is mbass@alpsnet.com and if you have topics of interest or folks you would like us to interview, I'm all ears. So thanks for listening folks. Have a good one. Bye-bye.

ALPS In Brief Podcast — Episode 29: Falling in Love with the Cloud

On this special Valentine’s Day episode of ALPS In Brief, Mark sits down with Joshua Lenon, lawyer in residence and data protection officer for Clio, to hear firsthand how cloud products can make your law practice more secure and efficient. Fall in love with new features of law practice management and growth software that will keep your data safe and sound.

Transcript:

MARK:           

Hello, this Mark Bassingthwaighte the risk manager with ALPS and welcome to another podcast, ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And I'm so pleased to have as our guest today Joshua Lenon, who is a lawyer in residence with Clio. And Joshua has done a podcast earlier with us in terms of one of our early initial podcasts, and I just wanted to invite Joshua back to discuss some developments in Clio. But Joshua, before we jump in can you just share a little bit about yourself for those that may not have heard the first podcast?

JOSHUA:                  

Sure. Thanks, Mark. It's really nice to be here. So, I'm Joshua Lennon, I'm Clio's lawyer in residence, and that means I am attorney admitted to New York, but I help Clio out of Vancouver, Canada with legal research into the intersection of technology in the practice of law. I also serve as Clio's data protection officer, helping us with compliance issues and research into the special privacy and confidentiality needs of legal technology and how we can really increase the security and protection of both law firms and their clients through the use of technology. I've been doing this for about six years now, I've been really lucky to be a part of the explosive growth of Clio and I quite frankly have one of the best jobs in law, I think.

MARK:         

I would agree. What has happened with Clio is really exciting. One of the reasons I wanted to visit with you is Clio has recently celebrated their 10th anniversary, as I understand it, and I've also heard that your 2018 Clio Cloud Conference, which occurred last fall in New Orleans was quite an event. And I thought we'd just start out by having you share sort of what's going on. What are the exciting things that ... What made 2018 a big year for Clio?

JOSHUA:  

So, there are a couple things that made 2018 a really big year for Clio. One of the words that leaps to mind is “growth.” We've grown both externally in terms of the number of law firms that we work with. We now currently work with 170,000 legal professionals in 90 countries around the world. We also have continued to grow our relationships with organizations like Bar Associations and law societies, whereas we're now offered as a member benefit by 66 different Bar Associations and law societies around the world. Excitingly, one of the oldest law societies in the world, the Law Society of England and Wales is now offering Clio as its exclusive cloud based member benefit, which is kind of cool. So, we get to go over to England and visit amazing historic locations that have influenced the common law around the world. So, that's been really cool.

MARK:

That is cool now. It just underscores you do have a very cool job. Please continue, what other exciting things are going on?

JOSHUA:  

We're growing like a weed internally at Clio as well. So, we actually just topped 350 employees, so that's 350 experts in their field, either building the backend of Clio or providing award-winning customer support to our customers. And one of the things that kind of leapt our head count forward is we acquired our integration partner Lexicata. What's interesting is because we're cloud-based, we actually integrate with a lot of different pieces of software out there, so not just things like the email that a law firm uses, but also highly specialized tools that target the legal industry. And we have approximately 160 integration partners right now, and one of our oldest and most popular is a company called Lexicata. They designed a client intake application that enables firms to really walk a potential client through the discovery phase, the consultation phase, and finally the retention phase of becoming a client with the law firm. And we realized that this was an area of legal technology that we could be performing better at, and so we took a look like any organization does. Do we go out and buy a piece of software that does that, or we build it ourselves?

And we had such a great fit, both organically and technically with Lexicata that it just made sense to merge. And so it's our first acquisition ever as a company. We brought on 30 new employees in office in L.A. and a whole new software suite, which means that we now help law firms not only manage their practice but manage the onboarding of clients into their practice. And that's been an incredible accomplishment in 2018.

MARK:

Yeah, that's a really big deal and kudos to you guys. That's exciting news, that really is. One of the things that I took note of from the cloud conference ... I didn't attend but I have been on the site and just looking at all the different speakers and it looked like it was a fantastic conference. But I was very interested too in the Legal Trends Report. And you had given a presentation not too long ago, I believe, sort of talking a bit about the legal trends report, and I was interested in ... You talked a bit about lawyer missteps, and I think Lexicata plays into this. Can you kind of explore a little bit what you learned out of Legal Trends and how Clio is helping lawyers?

JOSHUA:  

Absolutely. Yep. So, in case your listeners aren't familiar with the Legal Trends Report, it is an annual report that we've put out for the past three years. We always release it around the Clio Cloud Conference, which tends to be in the autumn, and it focuses on two different types of data. So, the first is data contributed by our customers through the use Clio as software. And I use the word contributed because it's something that you can opt out of, but while we don't look at any confidential information, I want to be very clear about that, we can look at certain meta-data around the way lawyers use Clio. So, for example, lawyers need us to keep track of how long a bill has been open, and is it past due? While we can't see the clients or the amount, we can see that an anonymized aggregate state, so again, very, very at arm’s length we can see that certain percentages of bills stay open for a certain percentage of time.

And so, that's the type of data that we bring into the Legal Trends Report, but on top of that we also use really extensive outside research on a variety of different topics, both with lawyers, and in 2018 we started talking to clients and how they are interacting with lawyers. What was interesting is, in the client research that we did in 2018, we found that clients are really signaling that they want to work in particular ways with law firms, and when we asked the exact same question to lawyers we found there was mismatch. So, one example is scheduling appointments. It turns out that clients really want a very seamless, single touchpoint method for contacting a law firm and scheduling an appointment. They don't want to do a back and forth in email, they want to be able to pick up the phone or go to a website and just have an appointment made quickly and easily.

And we found that lawyers were the opposite. They wanted back and forth, usually because they may not have access to their schedule, or that they may be interrupting other important billable activities. So, there's this mismatch or misstep as you said, between how the clients are expecting to interact with the lawyers and how lawyers are interacting with their clients. We went on in the report to identify eight different areas of mismatch between client expectation and lawyer service and how that can create frustration between the two parties, and may be an issue when it comes time for clients to refer new business to a law firm.

MARK:

Interesting. Interesting. Just as an aside, is this report available to the general public, or attorneys if they have any interest in taking a look?

JOSHUA:  

Absolutely. So, it's available for free. You can get to it by going to Clio.com/LTR. So, that's C-L-I-O.com/LTR, which is short for the Legal Trends Report. That'll actually take you to a website where you can download all three versions of the Legal Trends Report, that's 2016 through 2018, each with a little bit of unique research in each year. We've also provided some tools on that website based off of the research as well. So, for example, you can actually take a look at the billable rates per practice area, per state for both lawyers and non-lawyers and compare your own rates to them to see if you're charging maybe a premium for a high value product, or if maybe you're thinking about being a volume-based law firm, and are your rates then competitive with the law firms around you?

MARK:

It sounds like a lot of great information there.

JOSHUA:  

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MARK:

Any news on new features being released?

JOSHUA:  

Absolutely. So, in addition to acquiring Lexicata, we've actually been rewriting it and we're launching it in January of 2019 as a completely new system that we're calling Clio Grow. And so it takes all the great features of client intake that Lexicata had already built, puts a little bit of Clio research and design on top of them and makes it more deeply integrative with the Clio Practice Management Solution. So, if you're looking to bring on a client intake tool, it's going to be a seamless experience between the two. In addition to that, within Clio's Practice Management we've actually added a ton of new features. One of the things that has been most well received is we've built in payment plans into Clio right now. In 2017 we added built-in credit card processing because our research found that if a law firm had the ability to accept credit cards, they actually get paid about 33 percent faster.

MARK:

Yeah, doesn't surprise me at all.

JOSHUA:  

Yeah, and so if we can help our customers have a better accounts receivable, we figured we should. So, we negotiated a very sweetheart exclusive deal with LawPay and LawPay is now built in to Clio and can help you accept credit card payments. If you turn on LawPay in Clio and it's provided at no additional charge, then you can also turn on payment plans and it allows you to take an invoice, structure a series of payments including how often it gets paid, and we’ll just run that automatically in the background for you. It's been incredibly well received with people helping individuals in particular, so family law lawyers for example, or traffic and DUI/DWI lawyers are finding it to be a really helpful tool for bringing clients in, helping them afford legal services, and helping the law firm's bottom line. So, that's been an incredibly well received one.

One that I think is really neat on top of that is a feature we're calling Clio Launcher, and it is a downloadable plugin that you put on your computer, and any time you see a document in Clio, if you click on it it will just open that document in whatever appropriate piece of software is on your computer. So, if you've got a Word document stored in Clio, for example, you click on it, it'll open in Word and then when you click Save, it will save it directly back up to Clio's servers. So, there's a really seamless now work flow between having Clio as both your billing engine and your document management engine behind your law firm, whereas before we found that people just needed a little bit more of a sync between the two, and they were choosing to integrate tools like Dropbox or Google Drive, which are still there, but now you can get the free unlimited storage that comes included with Clio and not change your workflow at all but have ready access to your documents.

MARK:

Yeah, yeah. That sounds awesome.

JOSHUA:  

Yeah, I like that one a lot.

MARK:

Am I correct that Clio is moving into the mobile space as well?

JOSHUA:  

Absolutely. So, we've had a mobile app for years, available on iPhone and Android as well as an iOS tablet app. And what's really interesting is there's been kind of change in mobile architecture.

MARK:

Okay, alright.

JOSHUA:  

And so this is probably highly technical for your audience but before when you were building apps, you would have to have really highly specialized language depending on the phone you were building it for. And a little while back, app developers realized this was kind of ridiculous. If I have to write the exact same thing in two different languages for an iPhone and an Android phone, that's a huge amount of overhead, and it actually diminishes the ability to improve an app, update it quickly, add new features, because we have to write the exact same thing twice but it different languages. So, there's been a shift and this is mostly led by some of the bigger tech companies out there towards developing single source languages that allow you to develop really quickly. So, Clio's onboard with this. We're converting our mobile apps to this single language which is called React, and we're actually using it to release a variety of different apps, so not just a Clio app now, we actually just put together a free timekeeping app that's available on the iTunes store. So if you are a solo lawyer and you don't really need a full practice management solution, maybe you're just starting out, maybe you're working part time but you still want to keep track of your time, we've got an app for you.

And we build feedback cycles into our apps, so if you download it and it's not the right fit there will always be a feedback link, tell us what we can improve. And we're going to keep doing things like that, adding new apps and third party services using rapid development techniques, so that way we can find the best fit for law firms and lawyers out there.

MARK:

And what is on the horizon for 2019? Any exciting things that-

JOSHUA:  

Oh, so yes, absolutely. One of the things that I'm really excited about is ... We talked a little bit about the Clio Cloud Conference and it was another area of explosive growth for Clio in 2018, and so we had 1,500 lawyers from around the world come and meet with us in New Orleans. And we had, as you said, just absolutely phenomenal speakers. So, we try to pick the best speakers both inside legal as well outside legal, so that way we're learning what works for everybody. So, for example we actually had a great speaker come and talk about stress and how stress is not necessarily a bad thing. It's how you react to stress that needs to be your focus of your attention, right? Not the removal of it. You know?

MARK:

Right. Right.

JOSHUA:  

We had people from Stanford who came and talked about designing your life, and how we often times think of our professional life as separate from the rest of our life and really it's all just one big continuum.

MARK:

Yeah.

JOSHUA:  

So, how are you including the idea of your practice as a part of your life? And this is I think really important for lawyers because we consider ourselves professionals. It's an identity as well as a career, and if we're not thinking of that identity as both a part of our personal lives and our professional lives, we feel a lot of stress, for lack of a better word, between the two. So, if we approach it with a clear vision, while we may not be able to eliminate that stress we can definitely control how we react to it and our understanding of how other people are reacting to it as well. I found that to be very eye-opening.

MARK:

Yeah.

JOSHUA:  

So, 1,500 lawyers, phenomenal speakers, a really great party on top of that, but we ended up outgrowing the conference center that we were at, so there's no way we're going to fit next year, so we decided to move. And in 2019 we're going to be in San Diego, California.

MARK:

Oh, now there's a nice spot.

JOSHUA:  

Yeah. And we're expecting to add another 500 attendees.

MARK:

Oh my gosh.

JOSHUA:  

And we're already half sold out, which is amazing.

MARK:

That really is. Wow. Wow.

JOSHUA:  

Yeah. So, I'm sorry, I sound like I'm really hyping Clio a lot but it's just been a great year.

MARK:

It has. And you know, why I like to visit with you from time to time ... My role is Risk Manager, but I'm not, again, a traditional Risk Manager in the sense that I manage the risk of the ALPS corporation, I am hired to be a Risk Manager for all of our insureds, and for many attorneys you don't have to be an insured to work with me. Call and ask questions. And I, from a risk perspective for so many reasons just believe strongly in the value of a product like Clio, in terms of ... I could sit here and talk for probably 20 minutes on why I think moving to the cloud is a good idea and doing all of the things that you folks are doing in terms of the tools that you bring to the table for lawyers. I see that as essential.

But let me ask in closing here, give you a chance to comment on one thing. What I'm starting to hear a little bit, there is, in light of some of these major breaches that we have seen and crypto jacking and ransomware attacks just being rampant with everybody, but you couple that in terms of the risks of cyber breaches of some sort with what has been a really bad tough year in terms of 2018 with Facebook. I would just like to have you share some thoughts on the value, how would you counter this, "I don't want to move to the cloud because look at Facebook. I don't want to move to the cloud because these guys are next on a major ransomware attack." Do you have some thoughts?

JOSHUA:  

Yeah, I do. I actually think there's never going to be a complete elimination of risk, and I think any technology vendor who tells you that they're 100 percent secure is pulling the wool over your eyes.

MARK:

That's right. Absolutely. Yeah.

JOSHUA:  

Yeah.

MARK:

Yeah.

JOSHUA:  

But I do believe that there are vendors out there who are transparent in their security protocols, who are committed to the specific needs of the legal industry and they're definitely very specific, but also are keeping in line with the security requirements of clients and I think this is a really important point that most lawyers don't think about. There's a lot of privacy and security law that is being imposed upon clients right now and those clients are in turn turning to their law firms and saying, "How are you living up to this standard with my files?" And so, you need a tech vendor who recognizes not only your ethical duty of confidentiality, but your client's regulatory duty of privacy, and combines technology in a transparent way to facilitate both. And even that won't eliminate the risk 100 percent.

MARK:

Oh, right. You're never going to. That's impossible. I hope our listeners understand that. Am I hearing, understanding correctly that what I think differentiates companies like Clio is that when you approach the build, the software and hardware build in terms of how ... Am I hearing that the design from the bottom up is really looking at what are the obligations lawyers have, what are the regulatory issues clients face, and where security is thought through from the beginning as opposed to, "Hey, let's build this cool thing and call it Alexa." I'm not picking on Amazon here, but ...

JOSHUA:  

It's been a bad day for them today, so yeah.

MARK:

Do you appreciate where I'm going? It sounds like, and I just want to confirm that I'm hearing this correctly, that design in terms of preserving confidences and security are very much part of the design process from the very beginning, as opposed to a last minute, "Oh we should think about that"?

JOSHUA:  

Yeah. Actually there's an industry approach that's called privacy by design and in some instances it's required, legally speaking. So the general data protection regulation out of Europe is really trying to push privacy by design on a whole host of different businesses, but yeah, it absolutely needs to be a part of any consideration when it comes to building technology that handles sensitive data, which I think we're beginning to discover is all technology handles sensitive data at this point.

MARK:

Yeah.

JOSHUA:  

So, how we do it at Clio is as per our terms of service, we actually take on some of the responsibility of that risk, where we commit ourselves to industry best practices and we are very transparent in whom we use as part of our backend. It's called sub-processors and privacy law under GDPR, so we're required to disclose those sub-processors. We're required to vet those sub-processors. We're required to see that they meet the same contractual obligations to us that we commit to you. And so, there's a shared risk that comes with using a good transparent vendor, but it is a risk and I don't think we can ignore that. I do think that dollar per dollar, cloud computing gives you the best security for your money right now when you pick a transparent reputable vendor and the economies of scale that could be affected with cloud computing outweigh anything a small law firm can put together on their own.

And the one other counter point I would give to that is I think a lot of lawyers believe that because they're small that they're also obscure, and that nobody's targeting them. And what we've seen is unfortunately, things like Malware that people may not be targeting them specifically but they're still being caught in these giant dragnets of security risk.

MARK:

You bet.

JOSHUA:  

And so if you're trying to go it alone, what you're really doing is you're just setting yourself up to be caught in one of these dragnets.

MARK:

Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I hope our listeners ... That's one to note. Well, listen Joshua, I have taken more time than I think I should. I know you're a busy man here. I really appreciate your taking the time to visit with us, and to all of you listening I hope you found something of value here. My desire with this podcast really is just to try to have you hear firsthand the value of what cloud products can bring to the table in terms of enhancing your practice from a security side, to just creating all kinds of efficiencies. So, if you have been hesitant to look at these kinds of things up till now, I hope you will rethink it. You've got at least one Risk Manager here at ALPS saying hey, this is a really good idea. And from an insurance industry perspective I certainly think now's the time to make a move.

So, Joshua, again thank you very much. I appreciate your time. To all of you listening out there, if you have another topic you'd like to hear discussed at some point in the future or a guest you'd like to have join us, please don't hesitate to reach out. You can reach me at mbass@alpsnet.com. Thanks for listening. Joshua, have a good one.

JOSHUA:  

You too, Mark. Thank you.

MARK:

You bet.

_

JOSHUA LENON is an attorney admitted to the New York Bar.  He studied law at St. Louis University School of Law, obtaining a Juris Doctorate and a Certificate in International and Comparative Law. Joshua has since helped legal practitioners improve their services, working for Thomson Reuters’ publishing departments in both the United States and Canada. Joshua currently serves as Lawyer-in-Residence for Clio, providing legal scholarship and research skills to the leading cloud-based practice management platform from Vancouver, Canada. He’s been a guest lecturer for movements like legal hacking and legal technology at schools like MIT, Suffolk Law, and Vanderbilt, as well as before organizations like ReinventLaw and the ABA Law Practice Futures Initiative.

ALPS In Brief Podcast – Episode 28: Making Healthy Goals into Realities

When our behaviors become destructive and start to negatively impact our health or relationships, we’re motivated to make a change, but change is hard! ALPS Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte and Dr. Kathleen Baskett weigh the strategies and skills needed to make healthy changes against the risk factors that may sabotage your success.

Transcript

MARK:
Hello, this is Mark Bassingthwaighte and I'm the Risk Manager with ALPS insurance. Welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Today, I'm pleased to have as our guest my favorite physician, Dr. Kathleen Baskett. We spoke ... it's been Kathy I think about, oh, I don't know, six, nine months and we were, when we last visited, talking about weight management. And I'd like to talk today a little bit about change. But before we get into a brief conversation, can you just share a little bit about yourself again, for the benefit of our audience?

DR. BASKETT:
Of course, I would be happy to do so. I am the Medical Director of Weight Management Clinic at St. Vincent Health care in Billings, Montana. And I work with people who want to get healthier and work on healthy weight loss, whether it be losing weight non-surgically or through surgical weight loss methods.

MARK:
The last time we were talking about travel, and weight management, and the challenges people face. This time around, we're at the time of year, at the end of the year, beginning of a new year coming here shortly, where people will make commitments to try to change and ... I've got to go to the club now and start to work out, or I'm going to try to lose 15 pounds, or whatever it might be. But change can really be hard and I know a lot of your own patients are making commitments long term to really make some very, very significant changes. And I just initially would like some of your thoughts on, how can you help in terms of your insights with your patients. How can you help people make change? Where does it start?

DR. BASKETT:
Well, first of all, it has to start with the individual. Each person has to be ready to make the change. So when a person comes in and wants to work on late weight loss, I often ask them, why now? What made you decide that this is the time to work on weight loss? And if someone's here because their spouse wants him or her to lose weight, or they have a wedding coming up in two months, or they're going to Hawaii for the winter, often that's pretty quick fix and short term. But most of the time, people are ready because they are not healthy, they have many medical issues, they've been through a lot of quick weight loss programs that haven't worked.

So the first thing is that readiness to change and when each individual is willing and able to recognize their readiness for that.

MARK:
And what I find interesting about that is, if let's say my family feels that I should make some sort of change, work out some more ... what I'm hearing you say is, it doesn't matter what others around you want, but the individual that needs or wants to make the change, this really has to come from themselves, right? We really need, as individuals, to say, I am committed to this. And if that's not the case, are you saying the odds of a successful change go down?

DR. BASKETT:
Absolutely. I mean, if you really want to make the change for yourself, you're more likely for this to happen, for it to come to fruition because it's something you really want, you want internally and you are ready to go through all of those steps to reach your final goal.

MARK:
I have seen over the years, in terms of my own work as a risk manager, situations where lawyers have tried to make some change and when somebody starts to change things in life, whether again, it's dieting, exercising, whatever it might be, that, at times, I think it'd be a little threatening to spouses perhaps partners, associates — in terms of colleagues in a firm setting. And in my experience, they can be undermining and not necessarily very intentional about it, I think it can be a passive kind of thing ... do you have thoughts if someone is starting to make a change but then find others in their life being resistant to that individual being successful in their change, they have thoughts, are there things you might share about that?

DR. BASKETT:
For sure. It's almost analogous when you think of a mobile, I'm never sure how to pronounce that with, like wind chimes. When one chime is moving, it strikes the others and they all end up moving in one direction or another and it's like that in a relationship, either amongst two people or within a family unit. So when one person is changing it does affect the other people in that relationship sphere and other people will make a choice to go with the flow or be resistant to the change. In the weight loss arena, it's part of my job or my duty, in some way, to help my patients deal with that so that they are not sabotaged. It's to help them to understand that process and give them skills so that they continue to work on healthy constructive change and they have the empowerment to continue to do so.

MARK:
Do you have thoughts on, if someone comes in, in your practice, and they are, as you've discussed, you believe and can see that they are ready to commit to making some type of change, can you talk to me a little bit about what's realistic and what isn't? Somebody comes in and says, "I'm committed, I want to lose 50 pounds in six weeks because I have this wedding coming up or whatever it might be, versus, you see where I'm trying to go. What thoughts do you have about helping people understand how to set realistic goals? My guess is, maybe the best way to look at this as we start to implement change in our lives.

DR. BASKETT:
Well, and that's the key to help people to set realistic goals. I mean, the change can be overwhelming and daunting if someone has never exercised before, and then the statement is, well, I'm going to go to the gym every day, I will get up at four o'clock in the morning, exercise for two hours, go six days a week, that will probably last one week at the most. So, possibly you break your overall goal down into smaller, attainable goals, and then you have action steps. So, okay, if the goal is, I want to exercise, you help people break that down into, okay, which days of the week will you exercise? What time of the day will that be? And for how many minutes? And then what will you do during those times? What will you do for exercise?

Many people see it as all or nothing. Like, oh gosh, if I can't go to the gym for two hours, or if I don't walk for an hour, that doesn't count for anything. Well, if you can go and walk for 10 to 15 minutes every day on your lunch break, that's where you start. And it does count for something.

MARK:
Okay. I remember a number of years ago, I had a little more weight on me, put it that way. And I had a couple of tries where I wanted to go in and try to lose some weight. And I always thought to myself, hey, if I can lose 25 pounds, this will be the treat, this will be the reward and whether it's buying something special, or a good bottle of wine or something. And personally, I found that that never worked because I think ultimately I wasn't ready; as you've pointed out, people really need to be ready. But I think that conversation or this idea of reward versus incentive, do you have some thoughts about ... is looking at rewards or incentives one way to successfully navigate the long term process of making a change?

DR. BASKETT:
I think it's helpful for many people to celebrate their successes and to reward themselves when they've accomplished, and when they've reached goals. For example, someone who's trying to stop smoking, maybe for every pack of cigarettes that they don't purchase, they put the money that they would be spending for that pack of cigarettes into a jar and then at the end of the month, maybe they go out and buy themselves something that's healthy and constructive that they wouldn't have purchased before because it's important again to celebrate these accomplishments.

MARK:
And what I like about that idea, I look at this in the context of marriage, everybody's (what they would look at as a) reward or something, but if it were me, at the end of that month, it'd be fun to take a dinner and go out with my wife and have a nice evening out and celebrate the accomplishment together because it's a way to keep ... Well, the couple is investing in the goal together, it's just something that I think would be fun for me, from my perspective.

Let's talk a little bit about failure whether it's, oh, I just don't feel like getting up today or in the context of cigarette smoking. Perhaps you slip back, and you pick up a couple of packs and you just ... I suspect it's normal to have some of these struggles, challenges off base however you want to describe it. Do you have thoughts about how to navigate that so that it doesn't become what gets in the way and stops the progress and completely take somebody off the rails?

DR. BASKETT:
Well, there will always be things that get in the way. You will always get off track. The tendency is to slip back into old patterns.

MARK:
Yes, seems normal.

DR. BASKETT:
You go on travels, there is a vacation, have company, there're always interruptions into the routine, and for some people, it's much harder to get back on track. But again, I think it might be one of perspective. If you're looking at changing habits, looking at it as a process and a journey, and you have detours along the way, you always find our way. Let's keep working and getting back on track. Just getting back onto the Interstate and going forward. To me, failure is when someone gives up completely, that's failure. Gaining a few pounds or skipping a month at the gym isn't a failure, or smoking that pack of cigarettes when you didn't want to that isn't a failure, giving up completely, that's saying, I fail or I don't want to try anymore.

MARK:
So, it's healthy to just acknowledge that these bumps in the road come along and just say, okay, let's look at why perhaps and try start again, but not let it be something that defeats us.

DR. BASKETT:
Exactly. I would say it's healthy. It's also just normal because we are human beings and no one is perfect, we aren't automatons and we just keep going for ... What I find is often my patients are their own worst enemies, that they're very hard on themselves. And people need lots of encouragement. And if it takes two years to lose 10 pounds, so be it. You've lost 10 pounds, you didn't gain 20, that's a success.

MARK:
Right. A final point that's interesting to me and you were talking a little bit about here, how valuable support can be. And I guess I want to come with this notion of support in two ways. Is it important at the outset, in the context of family, friends perhaps, depending on what your support system is normally or colleagues at work, do you tend to say that people should try to establish some support systems at the beginning? So, for instance, if I want to lose 10 pounds or stop smoking that I should say to my wife or to my children, in terms of a whole family effort here, dad would like to stop smoking or dad would like to lose 20 pounds, and do you think that's a better way to start versus ... because we talked a little bit earlier about how sometimes people can undermine and I guess I'm thinking, is this one way to try to counterbalance that and also increase the odds of a long term successful outcome?

DR. BASKETT:
Well, I think it depends upon what the relationships are like. Many people do well when they have an accountability partner or a few people with whom they will share this information and those people offer support. I don't think people need to go out and announce to the world, hey, I'm going on a diet, I want to lose 50 pounds, or I'm not going to drink alcohol anymore, I'm not going to smoke. No, and there's the difference between support and then nagging, and all of those reminders.

But I think definitely sharing your journey with a few people whom you truly trust that know what your best interests are at heart, that's very helpful. Some of my patients will sign up with a personal trainer and the main reason is, that's another form of accountability. They feel responsible to that other person to get up, make it to the gym because they've made a commitment to that person and are paying a lot of money too, but that helps them be consistent with their exercise.

MARK:
Okay. In closing, do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share? I have one other quick thing, but I want to make sure if there's a point that you'd like to make that you have that opportunity.

DR. BASKETT:
Sure I would. I would say, change is hard. Change is hard for all of us and it just takes lots of practice, it takes patience, I think we need to be a little gentle with ourselves at times, but I think we also need to keep trying.

MARK:
Okay. And my final, I guess, question for you is, if someone is struggling with change, we could look at alcoholism, or just I want to cut back on alcohol, or I want to quit smoking. But if you struggle on these kinds of things, do you have any thoughts on, how do you know it's time to look for professional support, whether it's just support groups, in treatment centers or something, do you have any thoughts with that?

DR. BASKETT:
Yes, I think it's when those behaviors are becoming destructive. When these behaviors are negatively impacting your health, negatively impacting relationships, and you might say you want to make a change, but it just seems that you truly can't and things are going downhill, then it's time to look beyond, does someone need to go into rehab? Does someone need psychiatric support or working with a therapist? Because often these behaviors, these patterns, there are reasons that people carry extra weight. People use food for reasons much more than stomach hunger. And people use alcohol, and cigarettes, and drugs for various reasons. And it's needing to look deeper as to what truly is going on.

MARK:
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Well, listen, as always, it is such a pleasure. I really appreciate your taking a little time to sit down and join a conversation with me for the benefit of our listeners. I hope you've enjoyed the time this afternoon and I look forward to future conversations.

DR. BASKETT:
And thank you for having me.

MARK:
You are most welcome.

DR. BASKETT:
Happy 2019.

MARK:
Well thank you. Same to you. To the listeners out there, I hope you found something of interest today. Thank you for listening. And as always, if you have a topic that you would like to see discussed at some point or guests that you'd like us to visit with, please don't hesitate to reach out anytime. You may contact me at mbass@alpsnet.com. As always folks, thanks again. Bye, bye.

—

DR. KATHLEEN BASKET

For Dr. Baskett, medicine is not a job; it’s a calling. A firm believer in patient-centered care, she works daily to help each patient reach his or her optimal health and quality of life. She takes the time to get to know each patient, sharing in their joys and sorrows, celebrations and setbacks as they navigate their weight loss journey.

Dr. Baskett is board-certified in bariatric medicine. She attended the University of Maryland School of Maryland and completed an internship within the University of Maryland Medical System. When not treating patients, she enjoys exercising, practicing yoga, being outdoors and traveling. She also loves to spend time with her family.

ALPS In Brief Podcast – Episode 27: Adding Wellness to Your Workplace Every Day

Start the new year off on the right foot, or the left foot. Incorporating wellness into your everyday workplace routine can be as easy as putting on your socks! ALPS Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte chats with VIM & VIGR founder Michelle Huie who creates stylish compression socks by pairing personal expression with wellness — a perfect match for business professionals.

Transcript:

MARK:

Hello. This is Mark Bassingthwaite, the Risk Manager with ALPS, and welcome to another podcast of ALPS in brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And I am very excited about our guest today. I have with me Michelle Huie, and she is with a company here in Missoula known as VIM & VIGR and I'll explain to all of you in a moment why I would like to chat, I'm looking forward to chatting here with Michelle. But before we jump into our discussion, Michelle, can we take a few moments just to have you share a little bit about yourself.

MICHELLE HUIE:

Yeah. Absolutely. I'm Michelle Huie. I'm the founder of VIM & VIGR, stylish compression leg wear. We make stylish compression socks, compression tights, and we've been in the market for about five years. We're also based out of beautiful Missoula, Montana. Not quite in the Florence building, but beautiful Missoula, Montana.

MARK:

Yes.

MICHELLE:

And we have about 20 employees, all based here. I started the company five years ago, mainly as a personal need for myself.

MARK:

Yes.

MICHELLE:

I had a job where I was sitting for long periods of time. I'm sure we can relate to that.

MARK:

I can relate.

MICHELLE:

Yeah. And I just noticed that my legs were really tired and achy, which kind of was counterintuitive to me. I was like, "why am I tired? I've been sitting all day."

MARK:

Right. Right.

MICHELLE:

I've expended zero energy. I shouldn't be tired. And when I talked to a really good friend of mine who's a physical therapist, he said, "Oh, you should be wearing compression socks. Actually, most people have a job where they sit or stand for long periods of time and they should be wearing compression socks." So I did what most people would do, is I went online and I looked to see what options were out there for myself as a consumer. And the only thing I could find were really medical-looking or like weird—

MARK:

Yes. That's my impression.

MICHELLE:

Yeah. Like I'm thinking about my 98-year-old grandmother—

MARK:

Exactly.

MICHELLE:

Wearing these nude ... Like whose skin color looks like that? No one's.

MARK:

I know. I know.

MICHELLE:

And so I thought to myself, that's pretty much what I could find or athletic compression socks that were neon yellow or neon pink. And I said, you know, nothing really fit my professional lifestyle.

MARK:

Right.

MICHELLE:

And a light bulb went off and I said, "If I have a personal need for stylish, high-quality compression socks, I'm sure that there are a lot of people who could benefit as well. And so I really started the company mainly as kind of a workplace wellness product for myself.

MARK:

And that's my interest in visiting with you today. For our listeners, I assume most of you are aware, there's a real movement within the profession in the United States to focus on wellness. There's some interesting studies that have come out, really looking at depression and burnout and stress. Lawyers work long hours.

MICHELLE:

Right.

MARK:

And they have very ... Most people that are working with lawyers, are not involved in happy, uplifting times in their lives.

MICHELLE:

Right. Absolutely.

MARK:

This is a divorce, it's a bankruptcy.

MICHELLE:

Yeah.

MARK:

Those kinds of things. And there just is a lot of stress. And I'd be interested in your comments about the importance of wellness in ...

MICHELLE:

Yeah, I think that people, they don't think about wellness in that context. They don't think that somebody like a lawyer would have a physically demanding job. They may think like a nurse or a physical therapist or firefighter. They look at them as having physically demanding jobs. But in reality, a lot of people do, especially if you mix in high stress, poor eating.

MARK:

Yes.

MICHELLE:

Sedentary. They say sitting is a new smoking, right? That's the expression of sitting.

MARK:

Right. Yes. I have heard that.

MICHELLE:

And that's why a lot of times, I'm sure a lot of lawyers even listening now have those sit/stand desks, which is much better for you than sitting all day. And frankly, it is very, very stressful and there's a huge movement of kind of to prevent burnout. You have, for example, Ariana Huffington started her company, Thrive Global, and she wrote this book called "The Sleep Revolution," specifically to talk about preventing burnout in the workplace, because so much of it is ... It's obviously, there's physical, there's emotional, there's mental components of being healthy in the workplace. And frankly, you spend a lot more time working than you do doing anything else.

MARK:

That's true. Yeah.

MICHELLE:

And I think people kind of forget about how to stay healthy in the workplace and it's a real problem. And I think it definitely leads to a lot of burnout.

MARK:

And you've gone in this direction of compression socks, which I just, I love this. And for those of you listening, again, the company's VIM & VIGR. And I assume that the website is...

MICHELLE:

Yeah, VIM & VIGR. V-I-M V-I-G-R.com. Yeah.

MARK:

And I did have the opportunity to take a look at some of the product and it's great stuff.

MICHELLE:

Yeah.

MARK:

Like you were saying, it is not these neon things and the things grandma in her 90s wore.

MICHELLE:

Right.

MARK:

But how do you see compression socks, just as an example, really impacting ... Why is this important?

MICHELLE:

Yeah. I think that a lot of times, the perception of compression socks is for someone who is sick or elderly.

MARK:

Right. Yeah.

MICHELLE:

But there's actually a lot of preventative components of compression socks. Compression socks is technically a medical device. It helps increase circulation. It prevents ... It energizes legs. It prevents swelling. It does all these things that I call an occupational hazard of sitting or standing. Right?

MARK:

Yeah.

MICHELLE:

Sometimes you can't help but have a job where you're sitting or standing for long periods of time. And I call it the occupational hazard, right? And compression socks can really help with that. I look at launching VIM & VIGR as really beyond a compression sock, which it is, we provide that. It's all medical-grade, it's all listed by the FDA.

MARK:

Yes. Right.

MICHELLE:

But we're really focused on education and transitioning to more of that workplace wellness. If you look at our number one customer, our customers range from nurses who work double 12-hour shifts, right?

MARK:

Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of time on their feet.

MICHELLE:

A lot of time on your feet.

MARK:

Yes. Yes.

MICHELLE:

Teachers who are on their feet for long periods of time. People who are sitting at a desk for long periods, as well. Traveling is huge.

MARK:

Yeah, airplanes. Right.

MICHELLE:

Airplane. They call them economy class syndrome, right?

MARK:

Oh, really?

MICHELLE:

Yeah, where you have DBTs, [crosstalk 00:06:23]

MARK:

Okay, sure.

MICHELLE:

It's like blood clots can happen when you're in confined spaces like that, like an airplane. And so these are real conditions that can happen that could really affect physically how you feel. And so what VIM & VIGR has really morphed into and become is, not just a compression sock company, but more of this everyday wellness company. And it's so amazing that you can just put on a pair of compression socks and do a little something for your health. Obviously, we're not saying to wear compression socks and replace exercising and eating healthy.

MARK:

It's not the miracle cure.

MICHELLE:

It's not a miracle cure, but it's just one added tool.

MARK:

Yes. Yeah.

MICHELLE:

In your armamentarium to kind of be healthier in the workplace.

MARK:

Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking a little time to visit with us. And again, folks, I encourage you ... Oh boy, just ... And I really respect and admire the commitment to wellness and working with businesses of all shapes and sizes on the importance of wellness. But I also just love where you're starting with this product. It is a great ... I took a look at the site as I shared. I showed my wife, she's a physician. And her response was, "I need to show my patients these things."

MICHELLE:

Right.

MARK:

Because, yeah, again, it meets a need that's ... It allows us to be healthy and work on wellness in a way we can feel good about in terms of—

MICHELLE:

Yeah. And not guilt-ridden, right?

MARK:

Yes.

MICHELLE:

Sometimes with ... It's all the things you're not doing. Even the Fitbits, it's like, "Oh, you're not walking enough steps."

MARK:

Yeah. I haven't walked across the Serengeti yet.

MICHELLE:

Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

MARK:

Yeah.

MICHELLE:

And it's not supposed to be that. It's just supposed to be ... I like to look at these little things that you're going to do normal ... You're going to put on a pair of socks. Right?

MARK:

Yes.

MICHELLE:

Normally. Especially in Montana, for sure. But why not put on a pair of compression socks that can actually help you a little bit more?

MARK:

I agree. And I'm going to let that be the last word. Folks, I hope you found today's discussion interesting and of value. And if, at some point, you have a topic of interest you'd like to hear us chat about or a business or individual you'd like us to contact and do a podcast with, please don't hesitate to reach out to me here at ALPS. And me email address is mbass@alpsnet.com. Michelle, thank you again. It's been a pleasure. Folks, thanks for listening. Good-bye.

Episode 26: Paving the Way. Examining Idaho’s Model for Required Malpractice Insurance

Last year, Idaho became the second state to require malpractice insurance for private practitioners — and the first to adopt an open-market model to serve their state bar members. How did year one go? ALPS Executive Vice President Chris Newbold checks in with Diane Minnich, Executive Director of the Idaho State Bar, to find out in this episode of ALPS In Brief Podcast.

Transcript:

CHRIS NEWBOLD:

Good afternoon and welcome to another edition of ALPS in Brief. My name is Chris Newbold, Executive Vice President of ALPS, standing in for Mark Bassingthwaighte, for a podcast around an issue that's growing in importance particularly out West which is requiring lawyers to have malpractice insurance. Today I'm joined by Diane Minnich who's the Executive Director of the Idaho State Bar. And Idaho recently became the second state in the country to require malpractice insurance for private practitioners as a condition of licensure. So, Diane, thanks for joining me today.

DIANNE MINNICH:

You're welcome.

CHRIS:

So let's just maybe talk about just kind of how the concept in Idaho got started. What was the mechanism that triggered the discussion and when did it take place?

DIANNE:

Any rule change that is proposed in Idaho has to be taken to the Idaho State Bar membership for a vote and so in this particular case our president at the time thought that requiring malpractice insurance of attorneys was the right thing to do. She had done some defense work and felt like sometimes the clients were not being served well by those lawyers who threatened to file bankruptcy if you filed a malpractice claim against them. So she submitted that issue to our membership in 2016 and we went to every ... We go around the state, visit with all the lawyers. They all have an opportunity to vote. We talked with them. We had the people who were concerned and people who were supportive and it passed by the membership. Once that happened then we submit that proposal to the Supreme Court and they adopted it in 2017. In 2018 licensing, which is this year, was the first year that it was implemented for all lawyers that were representing private clients in Idaho.

CHRIS:

Okay. Now, the other state that requires malpractice insurance is Oregon and I think your model is a little bit different than the Oregon model. Talk to us about what model you adopted and why.

DIANNE:

The model we have is just basically open market, that every lawyer that represents private clients is required to obtain malpractice insurance in a 300 ... 100, 300 are the limits. We looked at the Oregon model in the past and I think our population of lawyers is just not large enough to support that particular model and so we determined that to try it out in the ... Let everybody try to find the insurance themselves and determine what they want to pay and who they want to go with, who they want as their carrier, was the best approach for us given our size.

CHRIS:

Okay, so you required it of your lawyers to go into the open market and was everybody who was required to get insurance, were they able to secure insurance?

DIANNE:

As far as we know everyone that was required under the rule to obtain insurance has done so. We had some that it took some time to do so. There were some concerns about cost and so some people said they couldn't get it and the real issue was the cost. We've learned since then there have been a few lawyers who didn't re-up their licensing because they didn't have insurance and we're going to encourage them to go ahead and do the licensing and then we'll work with them on insurance. I think there was a group of lawyers who were on the verge of retirement who, having to obtain insurance at this point in their career, made a choice to not continue to practice. Most of those that made that choice were close to retirement anyway and it sort of was the thing that pushed them over that to make that final decision which is, "Okay, I'm getting ready to retire. Now I'm going to do so."

CHRIS:

How many lawyers in Idaho are there and how many are kind of required to abide by the new rule?

DIANNE:

Our total membership is about 6,500. The active members is 4,000 and I think we determined that lawyers subject to the rule was in the 3,000 range, a little over 3,000.

CHRIS:

Okay. And so again, you were the first one in the country to kind of really go down the road of an open market model. Upon reflection now that you went through one cycle, right?

DIANNE:

Yes.

CHRIS:

Getting ready to go into a second year of a cycle. Just your general impressions of how you felt like it went and kind of the response from the membership.

DIANE:

We think it went relatively well. Everyone, like I said, who was required did obtain insurance. The questions we had were legitimate ones. We get a few calls from people that just are opposed to the concept but many of the questions were, house counsel, I'm a corporate counsel. How do I fit into the mix?" Part-time practice is an issue. "I'm only going to practice part time. Do I need insurance?" Pro bono. Those things I think we were able to deal with and those were where most of the questions came from lawyers in terms of just trying to understand. Our rule is very simple. Doesn't have any exceptions, doesn't have a lot of pieces and moving parts so in some ways that's good because it allowed us some flexibility to make decisions about how we handle certain issues. This year we revised the form some. We're ready to answer questions. We revised the FAQ to be a little bit more in line with the questions that were asked. I think we're ready to go. The lawyers were really, even those that are opposed to the concept were very respectful and professional about it. Once you explain to them how it works most of them were very thankful. "Thank you for answering my question", and went off and found insurance.

CHRIS:

Do you know the number of uninsured lawyers that you generally had in Idaho before the rule was enacted?

DIANNE:

Our best guess ... We had mandatory disclosure, whether or not you have insurance prior to this and have had it for a while, 10, 12 years. And so we figured in the range of 15 to 20%. It's hard to tell because our records were ... You have to pull out public attorneys out of the requirement of malpractice so kind of manipulate those. Statistics to try to figure out who really should have and shouldn't but I'm thinking 15 to 20% of the lawyers who are now required to have it did not have it prior to this time.

CHRIS:

Do you think the majority of those were probably more solo attorneys versus those in firms or ...?

DIANNE:

Most of them are either solo or small practices, yes.

CHRIS:

One of the things that sometimes people who don't have malpractice insurance that are coming into the market, obviously a big question is price, right? Any reflections on the price point in which people ultimately had to pay to come into the market?

DIANNE:

We asked lawyers when they ... They have to submit proof that they have insurance. So a dec page or a letter from the insurance company. We ask them to redact their premium amount and many did, many did not. We have a general idea and I talked to a lot of people on the phone anecdotally. From a part-time practice you know, it started anywhere from 500 up. I think of when I did sort of a random look at what people had it appears that in the two to three thousand dollar range is probably where most of it ... On a solo practice — a person — that was probably the average.

CHRIS:

Yeah, I guess I know that. Obviously we enjoy a relationship with the Idaho State Bar in terms of your endorsed carrier. Oftentimes those coming into the marketplace without any insurance are coming in without any kind of exposure ...

DIANNE:

Right.

CHRIS:

... in terms of their entry point into the market was oftentimes enables them to get a credit which pushes the price down at least early on in their career and then as they gain more exposure then the price ultimately goes up.

DIANNE:

Yeah and I think that's the question we're going to have this year, is the price is going to go up for a lot of the people that got it for the first time. Just being able to answer that question. Letting them understand that the prior risk has to be there as part of the policy. Those I think are going to be what we're going to deal with in terms of questions from lawyers this year. Everyone has it and one would assume they can go ahead and just re-up their insurance. The price is probably still going to become an issue.

CHRIS:

Yeah, yeah. The Idaho State Bar is a regulatory entity, yes?

DIANNE:

Yes.

CHRIS:

And so as you think about the ... I guess I'm curious on how you see this particular rule falling into your regulatory authority and ultimately what was the rule enacted to protect or prevent?

DIANNE:

I think the ... Couple things, one is the bottom line is it does protect the public in terms of the clients who have lawyers and if something happens that falls into the arena of a malpractice claim that they have an option in terms of to do something about that. I also think in general if you talk to people, they assume lawyers do have insurance. It's interesting how many people I've said it to that were not lawyers that said, "Oh, I thought everyone did." And so I think part of that is just a perception that that's something that is the right thing to do and that lawyers, like other professions, do and for the most part in this country they don't. And I think it protects lawyers too at some level. You know, if a lawyer has a client who's going to file a claim, they have some coverage too in case that is not legitimate or they need help or even if they did do something wrong. It can be fixed because sometimes lawyers make mistakes.

CHRIS:

Yeah.

DIANE:

And then that can be covered for them.

CHRIS:

Yeah. Well, good. As you know, there are other states around the country that are also kind of taking a look at enacting mandatory malpractice. Nevada was looking at it. Washington's looking at it, California's looking at it. Any advice or counsel to those other Bars that might think that this is the right type of rule that would protect the public and be important in terms of preserving confidence in the legal system?

DIANE:

I mean, I think all of those things are true. I think from a Bar's perspective it's the right thing to do. It's doable whether you want to go with an Oregon model or our model. But it's a lot of work. I think from an administrative standpoint, if you are a Bar, especially a larger one than we are, the amount of time and effort it's going to take to implement something like this is something you have to take into consideration. These things don't just happen and you want to do it right. We, one of my lawyers and I, we answered all the questions ourselves because we wanted lawyers to know, "We're listening to you. We're going to try to solve your problem. We're going to try to figure out how you fit into the rule." And we can do that in a small state, you know, be able to have that personal customer service so that they're feeling like, "Yeah, we have to do this but they're listening to me and helping me get to the place that I need to be in terms of obtaining insurance."

CHRIS:

Yeah. One final question, as the court enacted the rule, you obviously then had a period where I think you tried to do a significant amount of education, right? Before ...

DIANE:

Right.

CHRIS:

Because this is all part of the annual dues?

DIANE:

License fees. CHRIS: License fees?

DIANE:

Well, it's part of licensing requirements. Obviously they don't pay anything to us but ...

CHRIS:

So talk to us about just kind of what you did in that lead-up period because I think that will be important for others thinking about it.

DIANE:

We used all of our communication avenues, our magazine. I have an article, we have a weekly bulletin. And we wrote letters directly to everyone that we could determine should have it and didn't. Like we could figure out through our database and who said, "I don't have insurance" through the mandatory disclosure. We sent personalized letters to each of those people and said, "Okay. Here's the deal. Here's what's going to happen next. From our records you indicate you don't have it." So that they knew ahead of time, like six months out, that that's what was going to happen next.

CHRIS:

Well, good. Diane, anything else that you'd like to add before we wrap this podcast up?

DIANE:

I don't think so. I think it went ... It went more smoothly than I anticipated it and I'm just going to be interested to see how year two goes.

CHRIS:

Yeah. I mean, a couple of adjectives you threw out there was doable, somewhat smooth, not a lot of negative member feedback. Obviously some people weren't thrilled to have to kind of be subject to the new rule but it seemed to go well for Idaho.

DIANE:

Yes, it did.

CHRIS:

Good. Well, thank you, Diane. I appreciate your time today and appreciate the audience for listening in. If you have any other ideas for upcoming ALPS podcasts, feel free to let us know. Thanks and goodbye.

Episode 25: Avoiding Claims – 6 Practices Every Lawyer Should Implement

In this episode of the ALPS in Brief podcast, ALPS claims attorney Kobi Gibbs sits down with ALPS Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte to offer examples and advise on best practices to implement to avoid finding yourself dealing with claims.

ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte.

Transcript:

MARK:

Oh, there we go. Okay. Hello. This is Mark Bassingthwaighte. Welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes from you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And today I'm very pleased to have as our guest Kobi Gibbs, a long-time friend and colleague here at ALPS, and Kobi, before we jump into the discussion we're gonna have today, could you take just a few moments and tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

KOBI:

Sure. I have been at ALPS for almost 15 years. I started out in private practice in Billings, Montana, doing tax and estate planning, real estate transactions, and then went to the public defender's office in Yellowstone County and worked on felony criminal cases. So, quite a jump.

MARK:

Yes.

KOBI:

Got a little trial practice and then was offered the job at ALPS and was able to come back to Missoula.

MARK:

And ALPS has been privileged to have you here ever since. It's been a lot of fun. What I would like to talk about today, Kobi ... Sort of what got me started here was there was a movement I remember years ago that started in Australia that has since gone to several provinces in Canada and now it's beginning to come to the United States. Both Colorado and Illinois are looking at this and basically it's called Proactive Management Based Regulation. And the gist of it is bars are starting to think, ‘do we better serve the public by promoting the ethical practice of law as opposed to disciplining lawyers after something has happened?’ And so the idea is: encouraging lawyers and law firms to look at practices and procedures and to do a lot of training and education. Again, being proactive about how we just practice so that we try to avoid the ethical failings or shortcomings that some lawyers find themselves in.

MARK:

And so in light of that, I thought it would be very interesting to just visit with a claims attorney and get your perspective, because there's a lot of overlap with discipline and claims in terms of just the kinds of trouble some lawyers find themselves in. And I'd really just appreciate some of your thoughts when we talk about proactive risk management. From a claims perspective, could you share with our listeners the kinds of things you think about, say these are ... ‘If you could implement these practices, I think this would go a long way in having you avoid finding yourself in situations where you're dealing with claims.’ So, what are your thoughts?

KOBI:

Sure. I think the first critical issue is client selection. So, just not accepting every client that walks in your door. That can be hard when you're a solo practitioner and in a small jurisdiction where you need to make ... Pay the bills. But, I don't know how many times, I can't count how many times, literally, I hear, ‘I knew I shouldn't have taken on this case or this client. It was a problem. It was ... This person was going to be a problem. They were difficult from the initial meeting.’ And so if ... That would be my number one suggestion is if you have any ability to really think and trust your gut on whether to accept a client or not, it will save you so much trouble in the future.

MARK:

And when I think about that, I'd also say at times, even when I was in practice, you occasionally end up with somebody you realize after the fact isn't somebody you necessarily ... I mean, could be the potential problem client — you know you shouldn't have taken them on. I think, I would just encourage folks, if you find yourselves in that situation, get out if you can, or at a minimum, at least learn what you missed ... So, next time you can say, ‘oh, I need to ask these kinds of questions to make sure that I don't land in this situation again.’ But what other thoughts do you have? That's number one. I assume that ...

KOBI:

Well, number two, I know ... This kind of goes along with, even if you have ... No matter what your client, if they're difficult, if you're getting along with them great, they need to be updated and you need to have good communication with that client.

MARK:

Right.

KOBI:

We ... That's where ethical complaints start is when it's a client you don't really wanna deal with or it's a case that you don't wanna deal with, you've put it off and then the telephone calls don't get returned, the communication doesn't get returned and clients start to get very frustrated by that very quickly. And so I would say having just very clear communication. Also documenting in your file. That is critical. In writing. I will ask if this attorney, when they come to us and have an issue, if that, if there's any documentation of that decision being made by the client in writing in the file and when there isn't that written documentation, it makes our job a lot more difficult to defend that attorney.

MARK:

And so what I'm hearing from this is it's not just about trying to preserve some emails or just what we're talking with the client about, but am I understanding correctly that you're really trying to say we need a written record of the advice being given, how the decisions are being made. Am I correct? If that's ...

KOBI:

Yes.

MARK:

Okay.

KOBI:

So, on any major decisions, whether the client is following your advice or, especially, not choosing to follow your advice, document it in writing. And why? Because, for example, if the client says ‘I am okay with taking this risk,’ you've advised them of the risk and there are two different paths to go down and they say, ‘I'm good with taking that risk.’ Well, if you document that, and — it can just be an email ... It doesn't have to be critical — they don’t have to sign off on this giant waiver.

MARK:

Right.

KOBI:

But, just documenting that ‘yes, this was discussed, the pros and cons, and the client chose to take this risk or this ... to pursue this strategy.’ Then, if the case does not proceed — because there's always going to be a winner and a loser, so to speak — if the case doesn't go as the client wants and it comes back on that decision, you have it documented that that was a knowledgeable decision. They were informed before they made it. But when we don't have that documentation, it is much more difficult.

MARK:

And I wanna underscore because I think there's another point you've made that I wanna make sure is very clear for folks. As we sit here and you're talking about ... how documentation is particularly important when the client may be doing something that is not necessarily what the attorney's advising. Am I understanding correctly that you were also suggesting that the attorney advise — and then of course document the client — that the client is aware or made aware of the legal ramifications of making this decision against the advice of the lawyer? And am I understanding that correctly?

KOBI:

Yes. Yes.

MARK:

Perfect, perfect.

KOBI:

And kind of another suggestion along this line is in your retention letter, whether you're gonna limit the scope of representation. So many times we find it's just handling this personal injury case. Well, that includes everything then.

MARK:

Right.

KOBI:

And so if you aren't going to handle say, tax implications, investing, the settlement finds — that needs to be clearly documented in the file or in the retention agreement. And just again, with clear communication. So, the client knows what you're doing, what you're not doing. If they need to hire separate counsel to do something or get separate advice from another (a CPA or another professional), but that you're not ... that you have not agreed to take that on and so you're not later blamed for anything slipping through the cracks.

MARK:

And I think that is really, very sound advice. We tend to think of ... What we're really talking about is limited scope representation and we tend to think of that in the context of, ‘I'm intentionally sitting down and I'm only gonna do this little piece.’ And I think lawyers do a pretty good job of that, but I think in lots of situations where we are providing full service, so to speak, that clients may have some assumptions about, ‘what if I'm hiring this plaintiff lawyer and he or she's gonna do everything under the sun for me,’ that it's important to document that the client understands, ‘no, we don't do work comp here and there's a work comp component.’ So. Great, great advice. Okay. Other thoughts?

KOBI:

Calendaring is still a big issue. I'm sure everyone is aware of how critical deadlines are and having someone, a redundancy. So, whoever's entering the deadlines, there's somebody else checking or there's some backup, not the same person double checking. But, we still see so many missed deadlines and whether it's a failure to properly calendar or a failure to react to the calendar, because the attorney has too many cases or is too overwhelmed, we still have a lot of missed deadlines.

MARK:

And we really are seeing mistakes that … failure to react to calendar and calendaring missteps … we're seeing areas ... I mean, I guess what I'm trying to ask you, it's easy from a risk management perspective — these things can happen and I just wanna underscore that you're really telling us ‘yes, we do have claims where the calendar worked and for whatever reason nobody did anything anyway’ and it's just ... Am I hearing correctly?

KOBI:

Exactly. Exactly.

MARK:

Wow.

KOBI:

Yes. For example, if there is a ... If there's not a routine review of deadlines and someone else checking, I have had situations where a deadline came in between a couple of big cases that had other huge deadlines and so those were pushed to the front to triage, so to speak, and so a deadline that was thought maybe to be less critical was missed. The attorney thought maybe they could fix it, such as supplementing an expert disclosure, but in fact the court then doesn't allow that supplement and then the case is thrown out and so those kinds of things. It can happen. And so it sounds easy, but having extensive calendaring. The other issue is conflicts of interest and really not only looking ... Having everyone in the firm sign off on the clients but also on what they're doing as far as the types of cases. So, you don't have two clients who are competing for the same ... Let's say Pepsi and Coca Cola. You can't represent both.

MARK:

Right.

KOBI:

But I think that's starting to become a bigger issue and so you need to be thinking about that in how to implement that in your conflict procedures.

MARK:

One of the things that I hear in experience in terms of the lecturing and consulting I do is you'll find lawyers that practice in litigation. They, for the most part, get the significance of the conflict issue and they have various systems in play and we try to work with them if it's a little light on process, but more and more I'm coming across transaction lawyers that really kind of dismiss the conflict problem and they just don't see that as nearly significant, because we're not adverse, in the sense of litigation. Do we see conflict claims that come out of transaction practices? I mean, is ... Are they justified in saying, ‘I don't have to worry about this’ or as a claims attorney ... how do you respond to that one?

KOBI:

No. There are still going to be conflicts that are going to arise. And it's really not whether you think there's a conflict.

MARK:

Yes.

KOBI:

It's whether the client thinks there's a conflict and sometimes the opposing counsel will bring it up. And so that can ... And maybe it's justified, maybe it's not, but sometimes it can be a strategy to try and get people off of a case.

MARK:

Right.

KOBI:

But, if you are confident in your process and that there isn't a conflict, then you can defend that very easily or respond to that allegation.

MARK:

Right. Yeah. And I think some things that lawyers miss at times ... If we have a conflict that means, well, we can't do anything. And, you know, there are times where there are non-waivable conflicts. I mean, we're both well aware of that, but there are times where ethically it's permissible to proceed with informed consent. Sometimes there's a screen that can be put in place. So, it just depends on the circumstances, but if we're not looking for them, I mean, that's a huge issue.

KOBI:

Well, for example, a significant issue is with business startups and so who is your client? When you have two partners come to you that wanna set up an LLC and maybe they're gonna split it 50/50, maybe they're not. Maybe one client comes back later and says, well, I want it 51/49 or if it's 50/50, who's gonna be the tie break? So, really are you representing the LLC that you're forming or are you representing one of the members? 'Cause you can't do both.

MARK:

Right.

KOBI:

And so on those business transaction issues that's a critical one to be aware of.

MARK:

Okay. That's a great example. Yeah. Yeah. And I wanna underscore, again — I can't help it from the risk perspective — maybe ask you this final question on conflicts. The temptation is to focus on systems and I certainly do not wanna minimize the importance of an automated conflict checking system that can be done in real time in terms of first contact and tracking all the types of information that normally should be tracked, but from your experience here at ALPS and thinking about conflict claims, are they more frequently an ‘oops, we missed that name’ kind claim or are they more frequently a ‘conflict might have been recognized, but we didn't resolve it properly.’ You see what I'm saying?

KOBI:

Exactly.

MARK:

What should ... Do we see both? What would you say is the …?

KOBI:

We see both.

MARK:

Okay.

KOBI:

But I would say more often than not, the firm has decided it's a waivable conflict and hopefully they follow through with getting the waivers, but sometimes they haven't.

MARK:

Yeah.

KOBI:

And the other party may ... It may not be a conflict right now, but it may be something they need to be thinking about in the future. And so they might've thought about it and thought it's ... This isn't gonna probably arise, but when it does arise in the future then it's a conflict that might not be waivable.

MARK:

Yeah.

KOBI:

So, again, just making sure the client is informed so they can make informed decisions as well. Maybe they're fine with waving it. Maybe they realize the relationship.

MARK:

And I think that is an excellent point, 'cause I find lawyers at times really wanting to say, well, we've identified the conflict and we can decide how to work through. The conflict if you will, doesn't belong to the lawyer. It belongs to the client.

KOBI:

Right.

MARK:

And they get to decide if this is waivable or not, assuming ethically it would be. But, they don't have to waive. Interesting. Good stuff. Kobi, this is fantastic information and I think you're so spot on on everything. We're nearing the time we need to wrap this, but do you have any final closing comments or other tips you'd like to share? I'll just give you the, give you a moment.

KOBI:

I guess the last thing would just be: be informed when you're going into additional areas of practice. We always say don't dabble. We're not wanting to discourage people from learning new areas of practice, but if you don't realize ... If you don't know what you don't know and so that can come up and especially if you're, say, working in a family law case and then all of a sudden a bankruptcy arises, do you need to consult with someone so that you're making sure you're not violating the automatic stay? So, things like that.

MARK:

Yeah. We do see a lot of substantive law missteps, if you will. And I think I would absolutely agree with you that this is a great piece of advice. Just don't shoot from the hip.

KOBI:

Right.

MARK:

Take your time. If you need a co council, you need a mentor, you need to actually research the law, you've gotta take the time to do that. So, point well, well taken. Well, this concludes this episode of ALPS In Brief. I hope all of you listeners found something of value today and please don't hesitate to reach out to any of us here at ALPS anytime if we may be of service and if you have thoughts of somebody you'd like to hear in a podcast in future or a topic you'd like to hear discussed, please don't hesitate to reach out at me at mbass@ALPSnet.com. Thank you for listening folks. Kobi, again, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

KOBI:

Thank you.

MARK:

Bye bye all.

Episode 24: Train the Brain: Why Lawyer Mindfulness is Good Business

 

Jeff Bunn, lawyer, wellness expert and owner of the Mindful Law Coaching and Consulting Group, presents the business case for investing in attorney wellness. As he sits down with ALPS Executive Vice President, Chris Newbold, Jeff lays out why making mindfulness a priority in the legal profession makes sense not just from the health standpoint of health, but also the economics of the practice of law. To learn more about all areas of attorney wellness, visit the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being’s Resource Page, featuring the report and more information on what is happening in your state.

ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is usually hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte. This episode is hosted by Chris Newbold, ALPS Executive Vice President.

Transcript:

CHRIS:

All right. Welcome. This is Chris Newbold. Welcome to another version of the ALPS podcast ALPS in Brief. I'm sitting here in downtown Chicago with one of the experts in the field of wellness, Jeff Bunn, who is the owner of the Mindful Law Coaching and Consulting Group. Had a chance to meet Jeff a few weeks ago and he's doing some wonderful work in the field.

Today we're going to talk about the business case for wellness and why that makes good sense for firms, law firms, and the legal profession in general. Maybe what we'll do is start, Jeff, by just having you just introduce yourself and what gives you an interest in this particular area. I know you've had a distinguished legal career as well. Maybe just a little context on who you are.

JEFF:

Absolutely. I'd be happy. Thanks very much for inviting me, Chris. It's a delight to speak with you. My focus is really mindfulness, which is a little piece of the wellness pie, if you will. I happen to think it's a great and very important issue. It's an issue that gets a lot of play, a lot of thought, a lot of curiosity.

My story very briefly, I started ... I used to be like your Type A trial guy, long distance running. I was walking the dog one day, slipped on some black ice, got my knee scoped, and long story short couldn't run anymore. I was looking for something that was a low impact, no impact alternative to running. Little did I realize that I used to go out ... When I talk about running I'm talking about an hour or two hours kind of thing. It was meditation for me.

What I got into, because of my injury, was yoga. A lot of the men and women that I met practicing yoga talk about not only the poses and the practice but also other things that are more spiritual. I just found that that kind of resonated for me.

I took a training session, a meditation training session that is, and I just got into it. Now I'm not a proselytizer. I'm not out there banging the drum for being a spiritual guru. Quite to the contrary, I think that there are a lot of aspects of mindfulness, which is a piece of a larger tradition, like the Buddhist tradition in particular, that I think can be ... It's not an all or nothing proposition as a lot of people, men and women who I respect, feel a great deal of affection for and know. They're kind of an all or nothing ... You're either all in or you're not.

I get that. I understand it but I do believe that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. There are aspects of that faith or spiritual practice, Buddhism, mindfulness in particular, that can have a business application.

My saying is, which I ripped off from Dan Harris who is a great guy, is a news anchor that you or some of your listeners may know of, also the author of a great book, 10% Happier. It's an old book now. He's written more recently. It's about mindfulness and how it changed him.

Dan came up with a description of what is mindfulness? Well, if you ask 50 different people you're going to get 50 different definitions. He came up with a great soundbite that just works for me, "Simple, secular, scientific".

That's really what it is. To me, it's brain training. Mindfulness, that aspect of a broader practice, can be segmented, can be applied to the business world in terms of helping us focus our attention, prioritize our distractions, and the like.

CHRIS:

That's the key to it then is the ability? I mean, obviously we know that most lawyers in practice are go, go, go, busy, busy, busy, right?

JEFF:

Yup. Yup.

CHRIS:

The value proposition of mindfulness comes in where?

JEFF:

I think in terms of being able to again focus our attention and then prioritize distractions. There are distractions like emails, telephone calls, partners hanging out with a cup of coffee in the doorway wanting to talk about whatever. Yet we have a filing that we have to get done by such and such a time. Or we have a meeting coming up in 20 minutes and we need to think about that. Or a phone call or what have you.

I think that there are a lot of ... I think of it in terms of physical fitness and mental fitness. Everybody gets the idea of physical fitness now. As employee benefits go it's not a stretch at all to have firms or businesses help their employees deal with the ... They'll make contributions towards their monthly gym dues or what have you.

Well, let's start taking care of our minds as well as our bodies. I think if you think of mindfulness as not just vague woo woo kind of thing but actually very specific brain training. Attention, prioritizing distractions ...

The distractions will come but if one learns to focus one's attention in the midst of all the distractions that come that's going to make you a better lawyer. It'll make you a better professional. Therefore, I think it has ... Those practices, while it might not seem obvious, have an application in the business world.

CHRIS:

Yeah. We had a chance to be on a panel a couple of weeks ago. I think you've been able to crystallize as succinctly as I've been able to hear it about just the value of mindfulness and the value that it can bring ... If I'm a senior partner at a law firm build the case for me for why this is a good path to pursue. Often times we hear wellness and we think, "Oh, somebody is taking a two hour lunch," which for a lot of senior partners means that's less billable hours, right?

JEFF:

Yeah.

CHRIS:

It's a little bit of a ... I think you've been able to turn it on its head a little bit and say, "There are some real definitive business case elements to thinking about wellness, thinking about mindfulness." I'd love for you to present that for our audience.

JEFF:

Sure. I'd be happy to do that. It really has been a part of my journey. If I was having a conversation with you and you'd ask me, "What is mindfulness?" I'd start talking to you about what mindfulness is but in your mind you could just see people's eyes glaze over. They're just thinking it's all woo woo and, "Oh, Jeff has lost it. He's gone around the bend."

I get that. It was very frustrating at first because I felt like I was banging my head against the wall trying to convince people of something that they were disinclined to believe.

Then I started thinking, you know, if you can change the conversation ... Don't talk about something that whoever you're speaking to may think of as woo woo, as something vague and ill-defined with a lot of negative connotations. Let's talk about things that we do understand that have real meaning for us.

That's how I started thinking about is there such a thing as a business case for mindfulness. I think there is. As I've thought about it I've come up with ... There are five areas that I touched upon that I alluded to when you and I last met ... I'm sure there are more. It just requires more thought.

Just knocking them off and here I'm going to call myself out here, I better remember this, recruiting, retention, insurance costs, CLE costs, and basically productivity, which kind of ties all those together.

I think in terms of business, hard dollars, the idea of recruiting younger men and women. How does one law firm stand out from the crowd? How does one distinguish one's self? If a recruiter is able to say, "We value the minds of the men and women who work for us, old and young, and we put our money where our mouth is" that's going to help you tell a story that's going to hopefully help you recruit the best and the brightest to your firm.

CHRIS:

Particularly with this generation, right?

JEFF:

Absolutely.

CHRIS:

One that's I think coming into the legal profession with a sense of, "Obviously I want to do incredible work as a new lawyer but I also want to maintain a better work/life balance."

JEFF:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I have said and I still maintain that a law firm's greatest asset is its lawyer's minds. If you can begin to make a case, a real case, not just lip service, but a real case that we value our lawyer's minds, we want to protect them and the way we protect them is help them be happier, help them live a life that's more fulfilling, then that's a good thing for them and it's good for us as well, which really gets to the idea of retention.

If men and women who are at a law firm five, six, seven years out instead of saying, "I'm going to go in-house. I'm going to go do something else. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, but I'm done doing this, the law firm thing." Well, what a cost. The cost to the law firm of replacing the talent is huge.

CHRIS:

Huge.

JEFF:

It's huge. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. You lose in terms of continuity, of service to clients. You lose potentially the business of some clients. There's just nothing good I would submit that accrues to a law firm by virtue of a departure of a seasoned professional. I think it behooves a law firm to do what it can to help keep the men and women it has been developing. Recruiting is a big issue but retention I think is a huge issue.

I think also insurance costs and kudos to ALPS for recognizing that. I think that both in the area of health costs and perhaps professional liability costs it can be having a real committed, defined program can help deal with both health costs and professional liability costs.

Very quickly on the health thing. One might question, "How does taking care of your mind translate into benefits that can accrue to you physically? To your body?"

What I mentioned in the talk that you and I participated in recently was a Wall Street Journal article that was two or three weeks ago. Maybe a month at best. That was talking about mindfulness app developers that have begun the process of applying through the FDA for approval of some of their apps as medical devices.

Because, now we get into the science that I won't bore you or your listeners with now, the science behind all of this ... If you go to Aetna is a big company that has embraced mindfulness. If you have any interest at all go to their website. Aetna's got a great ...

CHRIS:

Scientific studies are clearly there now.

JEFF:

Big time. Big time. On the subject of science too I'm a little bit off-topic here but I'll go there, the idea of neuroplasticity. Relevance for younger men and women in terms of recruiting and retention that's I think something that firms need to pay attention to but what about their older people? People like me?

CHRIS:

Yeah.

JEFF:

Why would I care? Well, forget about me but just as an example as a human being who is 65 years old, neuroplasticity, which has driven a lot of the science and a lot of studies, is really the answer.

The concept behind neuroplasticity is that regardless of one's age, it's not just babies, it can be 65 year old people, we can rewire our brains. We can learn new things. The brain is a live, malleable, plastic thing. There are good reasons why even older people can and should engage in mindfulness because it relates to neuroplasticity and the ability to learn. Again, back to ...

CHRIS:

CLE and then productivity.

JEFF:

Right. Now we've got CLE and productivity. CLE, a lot of states have started ... Well, there are at least a handful, maybe 10, states now that have adopted ABA standards. The ABA did a great service to our profession by appointing the National Task Force on Wellbeing, which authored a report. It's a lengthy report, as you know very well. 70-ish pages including the appendices. It's a great read, by the way. I heartily commend it to anybody who is interested in the topic.

Apropos of that task force findings there have been recent changes recommended, not yet adopted by all states but it's just a matter of time, it will be, that include among CLE a requirement that men and women in the legal profession study programs that are either mental health, substance abuse, diversity and inclusion.

I would suggest to you that I think in terms of ... Those are costs that are typically borne by a law firm that instituting a program will help a firm qualify and train their people in that area.

All of which gets to the issue of productivity, which just makes people who are happier and are better balanced work better. Not longer. The billable hour is still with us. There's going to be plenty of emphasis placed on that by the business people but allowing and putting into place programs that help our men and women work better as opposed to longer ...

CHRIS:

There's no doubt that to be a good lawyer one has to be a healthy lawyer, right? The more that we encourage those types of cultures I think the more that we're going to see the economic return of that.

JEFF:

Absolutely. Just in conclusion, it occurs to me ... I think I mentioned this too earlier that I think the airlines really get it right when we all fly for business or pleasure and part of the opening instructions are always, "If in the unlikely event of a water landing or whatever take care of yourself first. Put your mask on first and then take care of other people."

CHRIS:

Yeah.

JEFF:

Same concept applies to lawyers. If we learn to take care of ourselves, physically and mentally, we'll do a better job for our clients.

CHRIS:

Awesome. Well, Jeff, if people want to get a hold of you and want to talk a little bit more about the mindfulness or the wellness things that you are working on how can they reach you?

JEFF:

Love to do that. Thank you for asking. Probably the best way is to deal with my email address. Right now it's J Bunn Law, J B-U-N-N, Law at Gmail dot com. Just bang me out an email. Whatever is on your mind. I obviously like to talk about this stuff. I'd be delighted to do just that.

CHRIS:

Good. Well, thank you, Jeff. Thank you listeners. Again, if you have any topics of interest that you'd like us to focus on an upcoming podcast please let us know. Thank you.

JEFF:

Chris, thanks. Okay.

 

Jeffrey H. Bunn is a retired litigation attorney, who practiced in both State and Federal courts for nearly 40 years, and was previously member of a three-person Management Committee for a Chicago law firm. “I’m one of us. I’ve represented many different clients in a variety of civil matters, was a former ethics partner and have managed (and been managed by) others. I understand how lawyers and law firms operate. I also understand business and business people. And I’m a regular meditator, trained in the vipassana tradition”.

Jeff was prior chair of the Chicago Bar Association (“CBA”) Commercial Litigation committee, and more recently, the founder and chair of the CBA committee on Mindfulness and the Law.

Jeff was the initial vice-chair of the Lawyers’ Assistance Program (“LAP”) Illinois Task Force for Lawyer Well-Being (modeled after the National Task Force that was formed by the American Bar Association (“ABA”), which issued a written Report in late 2017). He has led guided meditation sessions for the American Association of Law Schools (“AALS”), and the State Bar of Nevada. In addition, Jeff has presented on matters concerning the incorporation of mindfulness and meditation into the practice of law for the CBA, Chicago Volunteer Legal Services (“CVLS”) and the National Association of Bar Executives (“NABE”), as well as other professional organizations.

Jeff was previous blogger-in-chief of the, “The Mindful Law Guy” blog, and has written a book (Canary In The Coalmine) that is submitted for publication, as well as a screenplay (The Meditation Hesitation Blues), that has been submitted for sale and production.

Episode 23: Have You Talked to Nancy Yet?

At ALPS we talk a lot about what makes us different. We can say with confidence that it is because we recognize our people as our greatest asset. If you’ve ever called ALPS over the  past 18 years then it’s very likely that you’ve spoken with Nancy Hinckley. She is the front line, the first impression and the voice of ALPS. Her irreverent style and remarkable ability to connect personally with every person she speaks with is something that we treasure here in the office. On any given day she is speaking with lawyers looking for more information or firms dealing with claims and is able to masterfully help them and put their minds at ease. So in this podcast episode Mark sits down with Nancy to talk about how she found her voice by harnessing her sense of humor to connect and help the people that call ALPS every day.

ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte.

Transcript:

MARK:

Hello, this is Mark Bassingthwaighte. I'm the risk manager with ALPS. And welcome to the latest episode of our podcast, ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And I'm really excited about our guest today. For a number of years I've known Nancy Hinckley, and she is the receptionist here at ALPS, been here for quite some time. And I will tell you why we're going to have a conversation in just a few minutes.

But, Nancy, before we jump into everything, can you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

NANCY:

Well, thank you, Mark, first of all for having me here. Thank you for inviting me.

Well, I've actually been here 18 years. And I know some people they go into the business of receptionist with their foot in the door going to another position. Yeah. But, you know, I love the job. I love the people. It's fun. It's a fun job. And I feel that I turn it into something more. So that's why I'm still there.

MARK:

And I couldn't agree with you more. That's really why I wanted to visit with you today. To those of you that are listening in, some of you may be ALPS insureds, some of you not. But for those folks that are ALPS insureds, if you've ever called into the office for the last 18 years, I'm sure you have spoken with Nancy. And, really, Nancy is a very significant personality here at ALPS. In my mind, very much if you will, the voice of the company in so many ways. And I thought it would just be great fun to have people that have spoken with you over the year, and many more that will in future, just to get a chance to hear a little bit about you. I just find you're such a joy in terms of the company.

Initially, Nancy, I like ... You've been here 18 years, and I actually agree in terms of acknowledging that receptionists positions at times people have one foot in the door and one foot out the door. But you've taken this to a different level. You really are somebody that all of us here at ALPS just view as a key personality that helps set the, I don't know, just the tone of the company.

What is it that keeps you just energetic?

NANCY:

Keeps me energetic?

MARK:

Yeah.

NANCY:

God blesses us with talents. And mine ain't cooking. I say I was hired for my looks, evidently. So I figured that mine must have been laughter. I think of funny things to say. Things pop in my head. Things happen to me at home and all of a sudden I'm like wording it in a paragraph because I do those morning emails. Someone told me one time I should be a comedy writer. I thought that was a very lovely thing to say. I don't know, it just comes to me naturally. So I enjoy that.

MARK:

It makes such a difference here. I even share, I don't know if you notice ... for those listening I am very blessed to be able to telecommute now for all kinds of reasons. So I am still included in all these office emails that we all get. But my wife has come to enjoy your humor and I'll share those things with her in the morning. She just gets such a kick out of the crazy things that you come up with.

NANCY:

Well, like Johnny Carson, you kind of get like a lull, and then you have to come back.

MARK:

One of the other aspects, we've been talking a little bit about the public voice, but there is this internal voice as well. I guess, maybe can you share a little bit about why is humor important to you?

NANCY:

Well, I can give you a good example is that my mother is now living with us. Yay. Well, yay, it's a good thing. And people back in my home state of Georgia didn't even think she was going to make the plane trip. And she did. And I was like, "Why me God? What can I offer?" And, you know, I've been making her laugh. She's been doing a lot better. She looks really good. And I even confessed to her that I actually looked into clown school one time, like when I graduated high school.

MARK:

Seriously?

NANCY:

Yes, and I was a clown for a day. But my husband made me quit. He said he didn't want to introduce me, "Hey, this is my wife, the clown. Hey, clown, get over here." But humor does help with a lot of things. It helps, actually it helps with the phone calls. You know, I'm from Georgia. My husband's from Rhode Island. We met in the service. I have a niece that's an attorney, so I have actually talked to a lot of people. When they call in if someone's not available or if I can't help them at that moment, I kind of break the ice with that. "Hey, I'm from ...." A lot of callers from South Carolina, "Hey, I'm from Georgia." And all of a sudden we're best friends. And I had one person that knew my niece in Rhode Island. I had people that knew some friends back in Idaho. "Oh, I can give you their address." So you just start talking and that's how I break the ice with people.

MARK:

Do you get some calls at times where people are curmudgeon-y, for lack of a better word. What I'm hearing is this is a way to manage and calm people down perhaps. Do you use the tool in that way?

NANCY:

You know, I think in 18 years I probably had maybe three callers that weren't the nicest. The first one, she was very upset and I did try to give a little laugh in there. Not meaning to laugh, but just trying to like "Okay, you know, let me just ..." And she said, "I know you think it's funny but ..." We did get through that and I did get her to someone to help her, but it kind of didn't work at first.

MARK:

What I like about this in terms of my own role here at ALPS, I obviously do a lot of consulting and work on the preventative side. And what I love about you and the skill set that you bring, and I think so many of us can learn from, is the value of humor as a way to manage relationships. I think particularly in terms of law at times. When people are working with lawyers a lot of the time this isn't the happiest time in their life. You know, if it's litigation for bankruptcy, these kinds of things. I love how you use it as a way to really bridge a communication gap. I feel like, even when I come over I get a big warm hug, and these kinds of things. You create personal relationships. And I think the humor is one way to let people know, "I value getting to know you. I value ..." And you do it in a way that very casually shares information. So if you expose a little bit about yourself it says, "I'm investing in you."

Again, the fact that this happens at both the professional level in terms of what you do with our insureds, but also in the personal level internally. And to me I think the word that I've been hunting for throughout this whole conversation is that you are a person that defines, or helps define, our corporate culture. So I encourage all of you out there listening to just ... In my mind Nancy is very much a role model in terms of how to just manage and create personal relationships. And how that can really make a significant difference. I assure you folks that Nancy has done some incredible things here for us internally.

Nancy, are there any other things you'd like to share, some thoughts?

NANCY:

As you were speaking, and thank you very much for your compliments, you know you can't use humor all the time.

MARK:

Oh, right!

NANCY:

Especially when attorneys call in. They're upset or whatever. But if no one is available, there's been times, if they're with a meeting or with someone, whatever. I think it's also the tone that you use in your voice. I offer to take your name and number. Repeat everything. And I'll make sure that they get the message, reassure them. They appreciate that. You can tell that. It calms them down a little bit. They to me responded, "Well, I got this message to a person that I know will relay the message." So I feel confident about that. And it also helps with my personal relationships. I am a grandmother now. Yay. Two grandkids, 13 and 8. And I'm trying to teach them because I help with them quite a bit. I'm trying to teach them to not take life so seriously and just calm down and look at it other ways if a problem arises. So that they can just not be rushed into an answer. Not be angered by something, but "Let's think about this. This could have happened, but it didn't, this happened." Blah. Blah. Blah.

MARK:

Again, in terms of how you've impacted me over the years. One of my, for lack of a better word, takeaways is life is just too short to get all hot and bothered about certain things. It's just ... I take that even further and say at times, "You know I need to remember that my day, my week, or even how I view myself as a person, it's not defined by the circumstances that I am currently dealing with. They're defined by how I respond to them and who I am." It's about character. You know, you just ... You do that well.

NANCY:

Well, thank you.

MARK:

You do that well.

NANCY:

Thank you very much.

MARK:

Nancy, it's been a pleasure. And I really do appreciate your taking a little time to sit down and visit with myself and our listeners.

To those of you out there listening to this podcast, I hope you enjoyed a little time to get to know Nancy. And if you ever call in, you might ask, "Who am I talking to?" Because we do have some part-time receptionists. It's not always Nancy. But if you have the honor and the privilege to speak with her, give her a warm hello and I guarantee you won't regret it.

So that's it for our podcast today. If any of you have any ideas of topics you'd like to hear us discuss in the future, or have any speakers or companies you'd like us to try to visit with, please reach out and let me know. My email address is mbass@alpsnet.com.

That's it. Thanks again, Nancy.

NANCY:

Thank you, Mark.

MARK:

You bet. Bye-bye.

Episode 22: Project Rural Practice, Progress and Projections

ALPS Executive Vice President, Chris Newbold, caught up with former State Bar of South Dakota President and business transaction and estate planning attorney, Pat Goetzinger, at the 2018 South Dakota Annual Meeting in Sioux Falls. Pat reflects on an initiative that began under his tenure as Bar President six years ago called Project Rural Practice. (see this blog post from 2014 detailing the fledgling project) In many rural areas in the state, there was not access to an attorney within a 100 mile radius. The goal of the project is to increase access to attorneys by recruiting South Dakota attorneys to rural communities, providing them with support once they get there, mentoring them, giving them every opportunity that every other lawyer would have in a large law firm or a medium law firm in a populated area.

ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is usually hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte. This episode is hosted by Chris Newbold, ALPS Executive Vice President.

 

Transcript:

CHRIS:

All right. Hi, this is Chris Newbold. And I am guest host today for the ALPS in Brief podcast. I'm here from beautiful Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And I'm here with Pat Goetzinger. Pat is a business transaction and estate planning attorney from Rapid City and a former, past president of the State Bar of South Dakota. And we're here to talk about a very innovative project that launched under Pat's direction and he's continued to be involved with for a number of years and it deals with delivery of legal services, particularly to rural areas of South Dakota. And the program is called Project Rural Practice. And so, Pat thanks for being here with us today. And give us just an overview of what Project Rural Practice is and what you were hoping to achieve when this idea came to light.

PAT:

Well, Project Rural Practice came to mind as I was preparing for my year as State President of the ... State Bar President for the State of South Dakota. And really touched on the needs that rural communities have in recruiting lawyers back to Main Street in rural South Dakota. It's very personal to me, because my mentor Fred Cozad was a Main Street lawyer in my hometown of Martin, South Dakota and for the past 20 years Fred had been the solo practitioner in Martin before he embarked on his retirement and left Martin with no attorney on Main Street in South Dakota. And as we looked across the landscape in South Dakota several other small communities were suffering that kind of future.

And our Chief Justice, David Gilbertson had spoke about it very eloquently and he really planted the seed for what now is known as Project Rural Practice, which came about in the fall of 2011 during my term as State Bar President. We formed a task force. Couldn't think of a better person to be my chair of the task force and me predecessor, one of my predecessors was State Bar President Bob Morris. And with the help of Bob and our task force we put together a very active and vibrant program to bring forward Project Rural Practice in South Dakota.

And as we went around the state, told the story about what Project Rural Practice is and recruiting lawyers to rural communities, providing them with support once they get there, mentoring them, giving them every opportunity that every other lawyer would have in a large law firm or a medium law firm in a populated area, it really became apparent that there was interest in this program to the point where the Chief Justice, the State Bar, UJS and the law school came together to draft legislation to locate a funding source through the state government and provide an incentive payment to these young lawyers that wanted to locate their practice in a rural community.

And during the 2012 legislative session we were very successful in getting a funding source that was built on match donations, match contributions from the local communities that would benefit from the legal services, the State Bar Foundation pitching in some money as well. And that's what sold the legislature. That's what sold the governor. The Chief Justice's vision in developing that program, which became known as the Rural Attorney Recruitment Program was bringing this program forward into a very meaningful way to attract lawyers to Main Street, South Dakota.

CHRIS:

So, let's kind of reset the stage here. So, the problem then is that you were working to address is obviously South Dakota is a state that has geographic complexities with population centers and the challenge was that when a retiring lawyer in a small town retires that potentially creates an access to justice issue.

PAT:

Absolutely.

CHRIS:

In that, let's just call it, 100 mile radius around that particular area. And that was the issue that you were really kind of working to address to make sure that legal services could be delivered in rural areas of South Dakota.

PAT:

That's exactly right, Chris. And the idea behind Project Rural Practice was to attract lawyers to those vast areas of rural South Dakota that didn't have lawyers to serve the individuals or didn't have lawyers ready to step into very vibrant rural practices for lawyers on the verge of retiring. And our Chief Justice was eloquent in describing that as islands of justice with a vast sea of justice denied in these rural areas. And the Chief, coming from a small town as well, driving through South Dakota Main Streets to and from the courts' sessions, we just saw that Main Street, South Dakota in rural areas was having a difficult time attracting lawyers and we needed to do something about it. And Project Rural Practice kicked it off. The Rural Attorney Recruitment Program provided a funding source to it and we were able to get funding for what I call the Sweet 16 attorneys that we were capable of getting funding for to attract to these rural communities.

CHRIS:

Okay. So, the thing that I find so interesting about it and I think it's a testament to just the relationship element of South Dakota generally is the collaboration, right. So, you have the Bar Association that understands that there are lawyers that we need to be able to serve on the access to justice front. You have the legislature that comes in and becomes a partner in this from a funding perspective. So, you got the State Bar Foundation, you got the legislature, and then you have even county governments saying it's important for us a foundational core of our community to have a lawyer or lawyers and legal services available to the residents in our particular community. I mean, talk about the ... that's unique, right, to be able to kind of get the collaboration going, to be able to basically come together to address a problem that if solved helps the greater community.

PAT:

And that collaboration came through in how we built the task force. And it wasn't just a lawyer problem, it was a community problem. We approached the county commissioner's organization and put their executive director on our task force. We approached the school associations and put their director on our task force. The same way with the municipal league. The same way with the retailers association and the local chamber of commerces. Because everybody recognized what an economic engine having a lawyer on Main Street in a rural town would be. So, they wanted to be part of helping solve that problem. And that coalition of support was important to the legislature, because their local legislatures were being visiting by the community leaders that were part of this coalition, that were part of the group that said we need to support rural lawyers in Main Street, South Dakota.

I call it the big three. The big three is the State Bar, the UJS: Unified Judicial System, with Chief Justice and his team, and then the USD School of Law. The big three kind of oversaw this coalition, drove the work forward, helped develop the criteria for qualifying communities and qualifying attorneys to participate in this program to receive the incentive payments. And what was really fascinating about this incentive payment deal was we were the first in the nation program that a state government funded support for lawyers. Across the landscape state government will provide funding for medical professionals, dental, veterinary professionals. A variety of other professions receive some sort of funding from state government for attracting those professions to small town communities, but lawyers had never received that same kind of support and had never received that across the landscape nationwide until our program came along.

And to again speak to the coalition, the program to fund 16 lawyers needed a total sum of one million dollars in funding sources to make the annual $15,000 payment for a five your period to our Sweet 16 attorneys as they were recruiting. So, the math worked out to say we need a million dollars. How are we going to get a million dollars?

Well, the Chief to his credit found a funding source in state government for a half a million that was based on the other half a million coming from a match contribution from the local community and they had to put in 35 percent, so they had to raise that 35 percent to match the incentive payment by the state government and then the State Bar Foundation kicked in the other 15 percent. So, we were able to tell the story that we are active participants in it. The communities are active participants in it and the state, it's important enough to you to support rural communities by kicking in the other half a million dollars and then those sources come together to provide the annual incentive payments to the Sweet 16 that are recruited for this program. So, we've got this program.

CHRIS:

So, we've got the program right? So, you got the concept. You got the coalition. You got the funding and now it's time to go out and recruit your Sweet 16. How does that go?

PAT:

Again, that's a team effort that's comprised of the State Bar Strategic Planning Director. Our first one was Francy Foral and now it's Beth Overmoe, in partnership with UJS and the point person for Chief Justice in the UJS is Suzie Starr. And those two individuals literally go from county to county with qualifying communities making the case to county commissioners, city councilmen, education boards, to say we got this program. We got lawyers that are interested in coming in to the community, do you want to participate? And more often than not those communities say yes and then it's a match program to match up the lawyers available for the communities that have the need for it. And most of these matches are very easily made, because you got kids coming home. You got kids that want to be in a certain part of ... and I say kids ... young lawyers wanting to be in certain parts of South Dakota, close to where they grew up or close to what they want by way of a lifestyle.

And then we rely upon the law school to provide background training and through their placement program for lawyers that are already out or lawyers that are coming through, every year. And it's just an amazing scene when the Chief Justice goes down to the law school and meets with any law student that has an interest in rural practice. And they're literally lined up out the door wanting to meet with the Chief Justice who personally makes the case for participating in the Sweet 16 program.

And over the course of the past five years that we've had this program, we filled the first Sweet 16 round of participants, so they're all filled and now we got funding again about two years ago in the state legislature to expand the program for another round of Sweet 16 lawyers. And the background for that was we saw how popular this program was, how fast the Sweet 16 was filling up and then we also saw still vacuums throughout the state that still didn't have rural communities served, retiring lawyers with successors.

And then we also saw some glitches in where we were with regard to communities that qualified or should qualify, but because they were in a populated county, were disqualified from participating in the program. So, through this next round of legislative activity the Chief, again to his credit, with the State Bar, Tom Barnett, drafted legislation. We call it the Wall and Faith Bill. Where Wall, South Dakota in Pennington County, because they're 65 miles or 45 miles from Rapid need their own lawyer, but because they're in Pennington County, they don't qualify, because Pennington County is not a qualifying county. And Faith, South Dakota in Meade County, but 70 miles, 90 miles from the county seat, they have a need for rural lawyers, but they don't qualify because they were in Meade County. So, we tweaked the definition of a qualifying community to get Faith and Wall and I think Groton was also affected by it positively. So, we brought those communities in to give them the opportunity to recruit lawyers to their communities and help fill out the next category of Sweet 16 attorneys to qualify for this program.

So, we're well on our way to filling that up. And we got a couple of different things that have grown up out of this program to continue the momentum and to help recruit lawyers to fill the next round of Sweet 16. Two of those items, one of them relates to funding. And we knew that the State Bar had a 150,000 dollar commitment for the first round of Sweet 16 lawyers. It would have another 150,000 dollar commitment for the next round, so a total of 300,000 dollars coming from the State Bar Foundation. And being a conservative State Bar Foundation, we wanted to have that money in the bank. We wanted to make sure that money was ... we had a good start on it. It was in the bank. It was accruing interest. It was growing and we wouldn't be stressed when the dollars were to be paid out on an incremental basis annually for these participants.

So, we went actually a donor came to us, and God rest his soul, he was the motivation for the Project Rural Practice. He was my mentor. Fred Cozad came forward and said Pat we love the program. We love what it's doing. We like the idea that it's going to find my successor in Martin. Let me write a check to the State Bar Foundation to pick up half the cost of these ... of the State Bar's commitment, provided that you raise the other half from the State Bar membership. And so we called it the Cozad Challenge.

And because of Fred's generosity, we announced the Cozad Challenge at a State Bar meeting a couple of years ago. That day we had one donor come forward and already match 25,000 dollars. Wrote the check that day and we were off and running. And we filled that challenge up about two months ahead of the end of the term, we had filled it up and then went over the challenge request. So we banked more money than we had anticipated needing to raise for that program. But it energized the Bar, there was a huge response among the Bar to respond to the Cozad Challenge. And that was a very fun experience for the Bar, the Bar Foundation to participate in. It's a great success story about how to raise money in an environment where it's otherwise tight, but you get the right project, the right package, the right donor, the right message, and it all came together and it worked fabulously. So-

CHRIS:

So, talk for just a minute or two about what the lawyer expectation is, right. So, you do have sometimes the young lawyers, sometimes a little bit older who are going back to their community. What's their commitment? What's their expectation kind of financially or otherwise?

PAT:

Yeah. The commitment, so the lawyer that desires to participate in the Sweet 16 program needs to be accepted by the community, because the community is going to pitch in for their incentive payment. It's a 15,000 dollar annual incentive payment for five years. And they have to sign a contract. The community signs a contract. The State Bar Foundation, the UJS, and the lawyer sign a contract saying here are my expectations to provide practice in this community for the next five years and I agree to maintain malpractice insurance and do all these things that lawyers do in order to open an office and maintain a presence in that community.

Just as an example, we filled the Martin, South Dakota position that was vacated by Fred with a young lawyer who had signed her contract as a first year law student. And she got through law school. We delayed her start date due to the fact that she had a child. But, she passed the Bar. We just had the community open house to welcome her to Martin to take over as Fred's successor and participate in the Sweet 16 program. And I'm happy to say that my hometown of Martin for many years only had one lawyer and for several years had no lawyer, now has three lawyers that call Martin home full time. So, we're restocking rural America and Project Rural Practice is helping do that. There's practice opportunities in private practice, in court appointments, in being a state's attorney, deputy state's attorney, city attorney, the attorney for the school board. Just any variety of things that come along in a rural community that give the opportunity to the young lawyer to build their practice and make a good living as a lawyer in small town South Dakota.

The other program that we have that brings the lawyers into the process and this was just unveiled last summer and it's a first in the nation kind of program of its type, and that is we started a rural community or rural practice internship program for law students that want to participate in a rural practice setting while still in law school to see if its something they like and to build a connection with a lawyer that may be looking for somebody to-

CHRIS:

Build the pipeline?

PAT:

... build the pipeline. And we developed that program last year. And we had talked about it. It's a brain child of Bob Morris, who is my co-chair now on Project Rural Practice, but he said we got to provide this internship opportunity to give kids the chance to come into these communities, see what it's like and to give the lawyer the opportunity to train their successor or recruit their successor.

And last summer was the first summer that we launched that program. And the reason we picked last summer was because we got funding for it. And what we wanted to do is we wanted to offer the law firm, the small town lawyer the opportunity to be reimbursed the cost of providing this opportunity to the law student. And we said we'll pay up to half of what you pay this law student for their internship over summer capped at a certain dollar amount and it's around 2,000, I think we capped it at. But we said you got to pay them a real wage. Got to give them real files to work on. You got to monitor them and you got to report to see how this is going.

It was welcomed with open arms. We got four or five students participate last year in that program and one of them took over the practice for a lawyer that is retiring. So, we filled that position and it worked very nicely there. We exposed several law students to the opportunity and several of them are going to move into filling the next round of Sweet 16 by finding a community that has room for them and that they want to practice in. This year we got a little bit of a late start. We didn't have the lawyers waiting in the wings or they weren't prepared, but we're in the process of setting the stage for next year to get that program ramped up. And again, the funding source is sitting there, through the generosity of the South Dakota Bar Foundation. Again, we have the opportunity and we're very fortunate to have Bar members earmark funds for Project Rural Practice, for the Rural Attorney Recruitment Program and we collect those dollars and use them for support of the internship program, as well as to help pay the stipend that goes back to the lawyer participating in the program.

So, another exciting development that is the brain child of South Dakota and directly hits on how we're getting law students to fill these rural community needs.

CHRIS:

So, it's just ... two final questions before we wrap up. Where is the program today, right? So, the Sweet 16, those were all filled, right?

PAT:

Yup.

CHRIS:

You have funding for another 16, are those all filled as well?

PAT:

No, they're not all filled. We got maybe four commitments. We've got several contracts pending. So, we're working on the next round of 16. I think we'll get the report this week. I think we got 18 total with maybe four contracts pending in small town communities and several others that are on the cusp of tipping over and saying yup we're ready to sign a contract. So, it's just a function of timing and candidates to fill those positions.

The other ... we have this cycle, this rhythm of Project Rural Practice and the Rural Attorney Recruitment Program and one of the highlights of it is the spring meeting of Project Rural Practice in Pierre, South Dakota hosted by Chief Justice Gilbertson. And when the Chief Justice invites you to lunch, you better show up. And these Project Rural Practice candidates and participants do. And it's an opportunity to spend a day with the Chief, have an educational component, celebrate the success of the program, talk about the future, what can we do to help. But it's a reunion of sorts that we have with the Chief hosting it every April in Pierre and seeing all of these alumni come together and talk about their experiences and how can we make the program better, how can we support you better. What do we do in the future and all the things that go along with coming up with new ideas to keep this thing rolling and it's just a fun deal.

CHRIS:

Pat, when it's all said and done, what in your mind is the ultimate impact? What's been the result and the impact on that?

PAT:

I think it's absolutely the delivery of access to justice to people that otherwise wouldn't get it or would be delayed in getting it and exacerbating their legal issues and legal problems. I also think that the direct impact on the economic viability of the rural community is directly tied to this kind of a program, because you got lawyers occupying Main Street, drawing people into town. Providing legal services adds to the tax base, adds to the sales tax revenue base, keeps the money local, lets that money turn over locally. And you're providing careers for 16, up to 32 individuals who have families that help build that community and sustain that rural community.

I just think it's an absolute success story in terms of economic development on a micro level in rural communities that has tangible results day in and day out with those lawyers sitting in those offices on Main Street. It's noteworthy that our gubernatorial candidates point to their platform of reviving rural American and each one of them talking about Project Rural Practice as being a bedrock for how that gets done. So, we really feel fortunate that it's had the successful run it has had. We've got opportunities to make difference in additional spots, to fill up on the next round of Sweet 16. But, it's a program that I think is paying huge dividends to the state, to the community, to the Bar and what better way to give back than that.

CHRIS:

That's awesome. Well, it's ... congratulations to you. Congratulations to the State Bar, the Foundation, the communities. I know that a lot of folks, this has also been an issue that received some national attention in the New York Times, the ABA and many states are kind of ringing, calling South Dakota and saying what are you guys doing on this access to justice issue with respect to rural areas. And so, again congratulations. Thank you Pat.

PAT:

My pleasure, Chris.

CHRIS:

Appreciate your time today. And if you have any other questions about Project Rural Practice feel free to get in contact with Pat or the Executive Director of the State Bar of South Dakota. I'm sure they'd be willing to share their experiences and all that has come about based upon their efforts. Thank you for listening and we'll be back with more topics soon. Thanks.

 

Bio:

Pat Goetzinger is a partner in the Rapid City law firm Gunderson, Palmer, Nelson & Ashmore, LLP, where he leads the firm's Business and Estate Planning Group and serves on the firm's Executive Committee. He practices in the areas of business and estate planning with a focus on family run businesses, affluent individuals, business transactions, and real property law. Pat's practice has expanded to include service as a mediator, expert witness and court appointed fiduciary on business, trust and estate matters.

Pat is a past President of the South Dakota State Bar Association, and the South Dakota Bar Foundation, a Fellow in the American College of Trust and Estate Counsel, and a Fellow in the American College of Real Estate Lawyers. He is listed among the Best Lawyers in America, and Chambers USA, America's leading Lawyers for Business in the categories of Corporate/Commercial Law and Real Estate Law, and Private Wealth Law.

Through his service to the State Bar Association and the Governor's Task Force on Trust Reform and Administration since its inception in 1997, Pat has been actively involved in drafting and supporting the enactment of trust and business legislation in the South Dakota Legislature.

Pat’s desire to give back to his profession and the state is demonstrated by being the founder of Project Rural Practice, an initiative to restock rural main streets with attorneys and improve access to justice in rural areas. Pat especially enjoys the connection to the Black Hills & the Mount Rushmore National Memorial provided by his lifetime membership in the Mount Rushmore Society.

Episode 21: Are Women Attorneys a Better Risk?

In this episode of the ALPS In Brief podcast, ALPS Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte sits down with ALPS Underwriting Manager Leah Gooley to dig a little deeper into ALPS 30+ years of claims experience and what our data is telling us about women attorneys and their lower propensity toward malpractice claims.

ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte.

If you are interested in taking our Women in Law survey, click here.

MARK:

Hello. This is Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager with ALPS. Welcome to the latest episode of the ALPS podcast, ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from our home office in the Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana.

I'm delighted to have as our guest today, Leah Gooley. She is the Underwriting Manager here at ALPS. And Leah, before we get into the topic du jour, if you will, could we take just a few moments and have you share a little bit about yourself?

LEAH:

Absolutely. Thanks for having me here today. Again, this is Leah Gooley, and I am the Underwriting Manager at ALPS. I did grow up here in Montana. I actually am a native of Missoula, and I went away for school here in the neighborhood in Spokane at Gonzaga University, so go Zags, and then returned home here specifically to help with family after that, graduating with my bachelor's.

At the time, my grandma was showing signs of dementia, and my mother was disabled, so I needed to step in there, and ended up staying in the area and really starting my career in insurance here as well, so.

MARK:

Well, very good. Very good. Leah, my interest in having you join us today ... You know, here at ALPS, we are obviously getting email and things are going on in terms of what everybody's up to and all of that, and I noticed that you were out of the office giving a presentation on: Are Women Attorneys a Better Risk. I can't remember if that's the exact title of your presentation, but that caught my attention. And I'd really just like to talk about that subject with you a little bit, if we may.

I guess ... Are women a better risk?

LEAH:

Oh, I'm so glad you asked. They are, and it's interesting, because not just 1% better or 5% better, but a full almost 20% better risk, according to our data. So that's just leaps and bounds better than their male counterparts. We can talk a little bit more about this in a few minutes. But essentially, in boiling down our data, we took out all the different factors. It can be incredibly complex to come up with this kind of information, but really boiled it down to male versus women, and it's really, really accurate that that's the spread.

MARK:

Okay. So this is how we got here, in terms of just doing this internal study.

LEAH:

Yeah. Really the best way to look at that is to give a little bit of history on ALPS. We actually formed 30 years ago this year. The reason we formed was as an answer basically to, Montana attorneys had trouble finding affordable coverage, and liability coverage at all in some cases.

MARK:

Yes.

LEAH:

So that gave us a unique advantage, because really from the very beginning, ALPS was underwriting on an individual attorney basis, meaning that we collected individual attorney information. A lot of companies, our competitors, will use the big picture, firm as a whole.

MARK:

Right.

LEAH:

But we drill down to individual. So that also told us male versus female on those individual attorneys, and in reviewing all of that data, we found this interesting piece out.

MARK:

Yeah. Yeah. Obviously I'm well aware that we've been underwriting this way in terms of individual attorney specific ratings and these kinds of things. But I'm fascinated by this outcome. To be honest, I don't know ... I think I would have thought we'd see a little bit of a difference, but 20% is pretty significant. And when we say, "Okay. Now we have 30 years worth of data here," it makes me wonder, and I suspect the answer's probably a yes, if this is a real outcome.

And what I mean by this is that the risk preference that we're seeing here would be playing out in data all over the country, if they bothered to track it. I don't think this is just a unique outcome based on ALPS's data set. Wow. Fascinating stuff.

Do you have any thoughts on why the outcome? Why do you think women are better risks?

LEAH:

Well, yeah. Right now, we don't really fully understand the why behind that data, and I think you nailed it on the head there saying that a lot of other industries, if they are tracking it and they are looking at that data, can actually see a difference in male versus female. One of the best examples is probably auto insurance. At this point, we can look at male and female drivers and as those relate to frequency of claims, meaning how often they occur, and the severity of those claims, which is the general total value.

MARK:

Yes.

LEAH:

So women just tend to report more claims, so they have a higher frequency. But the overall cost is lower. Whereas men are often involved in more serious and severe claims, especially the IIHS, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. They're the folks that noted that men, more so than women, die each year in highway crashes, and they attributed that to just risky driving practices and not using seat belts, driving while impaired, speeding, that kind of thing.

So when we look at our data, perhaps women in law are engaged in fewer risky behaviors, or those actions that can really increase a claim and the total cost of it as well.

MARK:

Yeah. Right. Right. I want to come back to that risk thing in just a moment. I want to back up in terms of just the data. Were we expecting this outcome? Were we looking for this, or this is just, we're kind of mining our data to see what intellectual capital can be pulled from that?

LEAH:

That's exactly right. We weren't specifically looking for any outcome. We just wanted to see what all this information held, because again, we had so much of it. 30 years and lots of detail. Exactly. We found out this and a lot of other interesting information.

MARK:

I'll bet. You know, I'm a little bit of a numbers guy in a sense. I just think this kind of stuff is fascinating, and wow. Wow.

Getting back now to your comment on risk, I've been in the risk management side of things here at ALPS for over 20 years now and have done tremendous amount of consulting. Been in over 1200 firms over the past 20 years. And some of the firms that I've been in have actually been 100% women in terms of the partners, just by choice, by design, just a practice of all women. When you look at, even in firms that have ... they're just normal mixes of folks of all shapes, sizes, colors and whatnot, my sense is that women seem to be better listeners. I think they seem to be more ... I don't know. I'm struggling with the word, but in terms of relationship oriented, perhaps or relationship driven. Do you think that might be in part what plays into this risk?

You know, we are about evaluating risk and I'm trying to get to, what do you think the traits are as we further explore this why. You know, we can have data that says women are a better risk, but do you have thoughts on what gets them there?

LEAH:

Again, kind of pulling from other lines of insurance, it's been a long studied fact that doctors ... They're in a similar situation when it comes to malpractice claims.

MARK:

Of course. Yeah.

LEAH:

One of the things that always comes up is bedside manner and the ability for that kind of interaction with the patient, and the way that those two play against each other can impact if a claim is reported, whether or not there was a lapse in medical judgment. So looking at that, again, from our ... Women attorneys perhaps are more collaborative in the way that they practice law and the way that they resolve those potential claims successfully. And I think that that probably plays a big part in, as you noted, just the general firm and how they approach the way they practice.

MARK:

And thank you for saying it that way. That's really the word I was looking for, collaborative. And I do think that that makes a lot of sense to me. That's interesting.

You know, I, in recent weeks, have been doing some reading. I'm always reading in journals all kinds of things for article ideas and just trying to stay up on what's happening in the practice. There's been a lot of discussion of late in law about the reality that if you look at the numbers of men and women entering law school, we're pretty much this 50, 50 thing. But as you start to look at, how do those percentages play out over the course of a career, women are leaving the practice of law much younger and much faster than men are, and that is a bit of a concern.

One of the things that I want to say, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on this, but when I think about the challenges that women face, and then they step away from law for whatever reasons. You know, it may be family. It may be burn out, because ... I don't know. Some firms just still don't seem to prioritize pushing women up the ladder of sort of the power structure at the firm, and these kinds of things, as much as they do with men, and that seems to be changing, but it's slow.

But my thought is, when women are leaving practice, and sometimes you have a family, I like the fact that ... Knowing this kind of data, I guess I want to say to women, "Look. If and when you want to return to the practice, please hear and understand that from at least an insurance company like ALPS, you are a great risk." And I want this to sort of ... My hope is that this is some kind of a reason to either stay in, to go solo, to come back into practice. Do you see where I'm going? I just think this is information that it's vitally important ... I don't know if you have thoughts about that.

LEAH:

Absolutely. Like you said, we know women are a better risk and we know that they provide a lot of value to the legal profession, and so-

MARK:

Yes.

LEAH:

One of the things that ALPS as a company in general wants to understand, what some of the challenges and the obstacles are. We do currently have a survey open right now that asks those questions, where we want to know what women face as they practice law. Women are going to keep growing within this profession. Right now I think, the last time I looked at the Department of Labor's stats, 47% of the workforce was female, and now just slightly behind that, 36% of the legal profession is female, which is amazing, because 30 years ago, 40 years ago, it was only 1 in 10 women. So we know women are here to stay, and they're a growing part of that value that law firms have.

MARK:

Yeah. Yeah. And again, getting back to the risk side of this, we now have data that ... I'd like to take this data, if I'm a young associate or bucking to be partner in a small firm or something, as a woman I'd say, "Look. Here's some data I just learned from ALPS. I'm a better risk. You ought to promote me." If we're going to give a little fuel here to some folks, that'd be awesome. But, okay.

Leah, I really appreciate your taking the time. I don't know that I have other thoughts in this. Are there any last closing thoughts you have to share?

LEAH:

Only that we hopefully can put the link to the survey in the podcast notes, so if folks are interested in providing their thoughts, that would be wonderful. We'd love to hear more from you.

MARK:

Okay. Yes.

LEAH:

And just recognizing that women are an important part of the law profession. That's what matters to me, so.

MARK:

Well, it matters to all of us. Well, Leah, thank you. It has been really a pleasure to speak with you today. Of course, next time I get over to the Missoula office, we'll get a chance to visit, maybe go grab a cup of coffee and talk shop, and I really want to hear more about the kinds of crazy things you're finding as we dig down into this data of 30 years.

To those of you listening in on the podcast, I hope you found something of value. And please don't hesitate to check in with me anytime, if you have a speaker you'd like to hear from, if you have a topic you think would be interesting, let me know. You may reach me at mbass@alpsnet.com.

That's it. Thanks. I hope you all have a great day. Bye bye.