The ALPS In Brief Podcast

ALPS In Brief - Episode 67: Going ”Solo” in the Wilderness with Callie Russell

What does herding goats, surviving 3 months in the Canadian tundra, and eating porcupines have to do with practicing law? In this episode, Mark sits down with Callie Russell, star of Alone and Alone Frozen on Netflix, to discuss finding your inner strength and how to find happiness and warmth when everything seems dire. 

Transcript: 

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS. And welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. And yes, this is another one where I am back in the mothership, the main office, and it actually is just another gorgeous day here.

I just feel so privileged and excited about our guest today. It's Callie Russell. And Callie was a participant in season seven of Alone. And just had, again, an opportunity to hear her story. And it's just, oh my God, it's just an extraordinary story of what she experienced. And I would also like to say Callie, just an exciting, you're such an authentic person. And just it's an honor and pleasure to be in your presence. You bring such just authenticity to being, I don't know, human or something, to me. So it's again, a pleasure to have you here.

So before we jump in, can you just take a few minutes and share a little bit about yourself with our audience?

Callie Russell:

Sure, of course. Thanks for having me, Mark.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

You're welcome.

Callie Russell:

And I just have to start to say I do have roots in Montana. My father and grandparents and great-grandparents are all from the Flathead Valley. But unfortunately, I went to school down in Arizona, or maybe not unfortunately, it just is-

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

It is what it is.

Callie Russell:

It is what it is. But I would've liked to spend the time in the mountains. I always loved coming up here as a kid. And so growing up, we would go back and forth from Arizona to Montana quite a bit. And growing up down in Phoenix, I didn't have the connection to the food in the land that I was really yearning for as a young person. And I made this pact to myself when I was a teenager. I said, "I'm not going to eat meat until I figure out how to hunt or fish or raise farm animals." And so that led me to be a vegetarian for over a decade. But then it pushed me into the skills that I do now. So I practice ancestral skills, and I teach ancestral skills to children, teenagers, adults. And it all started with me wanting to seek that connection to food, that connection to land.

And so now, for over a dozen years, I've been practicing these skills and I've spent a lot of time out in the wilderness, sometimes by myself, sometimes with teenagers I've worked with and sometimes with my herd of goats. And so now I live, I move around, I'm nomadic a little bit, right? But I'm based up in the Flathead Valley up in Kalispell, and I have a herd of goats and I live off grid there. And my goats are milk goats and pack goats. So they're trained to carry packs. They just allow me to get out into the mountains and disappear out there.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Very cool. And how did you end up on Alone of all things? I'm thinking, and I know the answer to this a little bit already, but this is not something that you were pursuing and just, "Oh, I got to go out and do this." So share, how how'd we get here?

Callie Russell:

Yeah, that's right. I wasn't have any intention to go on a television show. In fact, I was sort of avoiding things like that. I wanted just to live out in the wilderness. That's what I wanted to do. So I was trying to gain the skills that would allow me to stay out in the wilderness for longer and longer periods of time. And I was just out there and I became quite feral really. The casting agent for Alone reached out to me. They found me through a friend of mine who, his name's Jim Knapp, he's a Canadian trapper. And he applied for the show, but then they didn't take him on the show, but they started asking him, "Well, who do you know? Who do you know? And what women do you know?" They were really looking for women because the casting agents were really struggling to find women that had the skills to be a part of a competition like this.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Right. I've seen some episodes of the show, I'd have to be honest to say, not a whole lot. And in part, my wife and I are cord cutters, so we have to be very intentional about what we want to watch. And we've been doing that for many, many years. But the premise of the show, for those of you, you're really placed out in some very rugged uninhabited spaces. And the whole point is to see who can survive how long, and the person that goes the longest, I guess, wins that season.

The stories that you shared today and this whole experience, it really is about survival. And I'd love just to share and have a little conversation about the things that enabled you to survive, the learnings. I loved you shared some things about... How do I want to say this? Some people early on as I sort walked away from all of this, were making lots of mistakes and to where you're tapping out because they're ill, they're sick, and can take them out as well if need be. You went, I won't spoil anything if people want to watch this. But you went a long time. How did you do that? How can you survive? Well, you explain where you were and of the environment you were in. But I loved taking care of your feet, as an example, those kinds of things.

Callie Russell:

Yeah. So we were all dropped... So the season I was on, season seven, took place in the Northwest Territories up in northern Canada. And that's technically the subarctic right there. We're just below the Arctic Circle. And we were dropped in late September, so going into winter, and should we do a spoiler alert here.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

That's okay, we can do a spoiler alert.

Callie Russell:

Spoiler alert. I was out there for 89 days and I got to spend that time really going deep with that land because we don't have any food and there's no camera crew. So everything that we're doing out there, we're self-documenting. And we're dropped very far. There's nine other participants, and we're dropped far out from each other. So we don't see each other, we don't hear each other, we're way far away. So we're out there alone surviving and living off of the land. Anything we want to eat, we have to find it ourselves. And we're self-documenting the whole time. And for me, the reason I think I was able to stay so long was the mindset that I went in there with. And I feel like no matter where you are in life, whether you're in the wilderness or you're in town, whatever, you're doing so much about, life is about mindset and the skills are important. All the skills that we hold and the survival skills that I had in my pocket were important. But I feel like the mindset piece is, there's so much power in that.

And I really went into that experience knowing that the wilderness isn't a place that's out to get me, that's out to hurt me or take advantage of me. I went out there knowing that the wilderness is there to hold me and it's where I come from. It's where humans have lived for much longer than how we're living today. So I knew that I was going back home in a sense. I was going to live and rediscover how humans have lived for so long.

And so I went into this experience with this really open mindset and willing to just let the experience be what it's going to be, and also let the land care for me in a way and know that everything I need is there. And going into the experience with an abundance mindset, not a scarcity mindset that, "Oh, there's not going to be enough and winter's coming and I have to hurry." And I did, I did have to hurry. I had to do a lot before that snow set in. But my mindset was abundance that I know it's going to work out. I know the land will take care of me.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

I love that. It ties into where I want to go to when you were talking about control. And if it were me, now, I obviously don't have the same kind of skills, but I can choose how to look at a situation like this and you can sit and say, "Oh my gosh, winter's coming. I don't have a hot shower. How am I going to get through?" Versus, "I can figure this out." And it's sort of a half glass empty, half glass full kind of approach at the outset.

Callie Russell:

Exactly.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

So let's explore this a little bit in terms of control. You had shared some stories and some insights and I love what you had to say about that.

Callie Russell:

Yeah. That's one of the things, because Alone wasn't my first time spending a large stretch of time alone and the wilderness. I had been spending time in the wilderness, but in places that I knew and was more familiar with the resources and the weather and all that. This definitely was a challenge that pushed me out of my comfort zone in many ways. But the wilderness has taught me, time and time again, that I'm not in control. And getting hit with a hard storm, it showed me how insignificant I am. I do not have any control over the weather. And there's so many big things that I literally have no control over. But I always have a choice. Even though I have no control over most things in life, I always have control over one thing, and that's my personal choice. What lens do I want to look things through?

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yes.

Callie Russell:

How do I want to react? And for me, it's always looking for those doorways instead of walls, looking for how is this glass full, as you say, looking for the silver lining. And so for me, going out there, I was going out there trusting that it was going to work out how it needed to work out and that everything I needed was going to be there. And you also wanted to talk about the self care thing too.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Sure, let's go for it.

Callie Russell:

Okay. So also the wilderness has also showed me that being in the wilderness, a lot of people think that it's this thing, you just have to suffer through it. It's going to be uncomfortable, you're going to be cold, hungry, there's going to be bugs biting you, there's scary bears, it's this miserable sort of thing. And I had learned over the years how to really thrive in the wilderness and it not be the suffer fest be very enjoyable. And I learned how to take care of myself out there. I learned the right clothes to wear, where to camp that's a better place to camp and just things that make it a more enjoyable experience. And I learned that even in the wilderness, having good self care is very important, having good hygiene is important. Making sure you're hydrated all these things. And so I took that knowledge with me on Alone and knowing if I don't take care of myself and do those little self care things every day, that's something that could take me out of this competition.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Right. Am I correct in saying you prioritized the self care over even some of the major tasks that need to be done? Why would you do that?

Callie Russell:

Well, because in my experience, those little things that's in the wilderness, a little cut, you're like, "Oh, it's just a little cut. No worries. I don't need to worry about that." But little cuts can get infected really easily. And then you have this big festering infected wound that actually, now I can't use that hand. I can't hold an ax in that hand anymore because it's swollen. But if I would've just slowed down and taken care of that cut, soaked it in an herbal tea, found some wild yarrow or something, and soaked it in there and took care of that cut right away, it would be no problem. And so it's like that saying, a stitch in time saves nine. If you take care of something right away, you're saving yourself a much bigger problem.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And let me comment on that just for a minute. Wellbeing is an extremely hot topic and a very, very important topic, particularly in the legal profession. Folks, when we think about the rate of various types of impairments and mental illness and burnout, I think the Callie's story really just underscores the significance, the value of saying, "Okay, I need to make sure that I am putting in, even if it's just a little time every day to take care of myself, to perhaps nurture," you're alone here in this, but nurture support systems, do whatever. Because if you don't focus on yourself at times and do these basics, you are going to end up... It may not be a swollen wrist in the wilderness, but it may be, I don't have the internal strength anymore to deal with all the craziness going on in my professional life and I'm burning out.

So I just want to underscore these little things, even if it's just take a break and have a cup of coffee, take a little time to enjoy the sunrise, the thunderstorms in the area, roll down the window, breathe the air in and listen to that lightning and rain. It's just gorgeous if you ask me. So I want to underscore that point. You had talked too about a time where you really were struggling and you had a moment that... Can we talk about that just briefly?

Callie Russell:

Sure. Yeah. There's a moment out there I had where I was struggling to find food that had fat in it. And I knew if I didn't do that, I would have to leave. And I really didn't want to leave. And it broke me down. I had ,so far up to that point, had been feeling like I was in a pretty positive mindset. Challenges would come up, struggles would come up, but I was okay. I just kept going and could just keep going with it. But this sort of broke me down and I was so sad to think that I would have to leave and it not be my choice to leave. And I had this sort of awakening a moment or a moment, some people might call it a moment of enlightenment or something like that. It was pretty profound. And it's hard to really capture the whole moment in words and be able to retell.

But I was standing on this cliff above this porcupine den that I was really hoping to catch this porcupine. And I kept being very unsuccessful with it. And I realized I was worrying so much about what could happen in the future, something that was out of my control if I was going to be pulled from this competition or not and that I was so sad about that because I wanted to stay. I wanted to keep being out there. And I realized in that moment, I'm so caught up in thinking about what may or may not happen in the future that I was missing out on what I actually wanted, which was just to be present and absorbed in this wilderness experience.

And this lesson I've been taught many times in the wilderness, I'm not in control. But this time it hit me in a whole new way and that, it hit me, I'm not in control. And I actually surrendered to it. Instead of just in my mind being like, okay, I logically understand I'm not in control. But it hit me and I actually surrendered. I let go. I let go of all the things that I'm not in control of. And it just opened so much up for me. It created all this space within myself. And I was actually sort of freed from my own mind and able to be present in that moment and see and experience life in a way I never had before.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

I love that. Why that spoke to me, I'm not a person that sort of believes in predestined fate and all this stuff, but I do believe that life, there are different ways to describe this, but things happen for a purpose. Things happen for a reason. We need to learn to listen to them and be open to where life is taking this and all this. And my point to all this is people have said to me at times, "Mark, you need to learn how to be present in the moment." And there's the mindfulness movement and I've never really gotten that. But what you explained when I was listening to it during your presentation and here now again, you really do a very good job. Just the light went on. That's what it means to be present in the moment, just to experience this now. No agendas, no worries, and just be in the grace, just enjoy. This is here and now. So I thank you for that. For one, it's just like, okay, little light went on there.

Callie Russell:

Yeah, it's amazing. I just realized I was the only thing in the way of what I wanted in that moment. What I wanted was to be really immersed in this wilderness experience. And I was there, but I was preventing myself from being fully immersed because I was worrying about the future. And when I realized that and was actually able to just let go of what may or may not happen in the future, I was actually able to get the exact thing which that I wanted, which was be there. And it's just so profound to realize I was the one... We always sort look elsewhere to blame circumstances and for what's going on and why things aren't working out. But just to realize every single day, I am the only one that gets to choose if I have a good day or not. I'm the one who gets to choose if I'm enjoying myself. And it doesn't matter the circumstances, all the circumstances, I'm not in control of all that. The only thing I get to choose is I still get to choose if I'm going to enjoy my day.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And again, the circumstance of being in Alone and doing all this, I mean, what an extraordinary experience. But I think these kinds of lessons, learnings are applicable to all of us. I don't need to be alone pushing boundaries like you did in such an extraordinary way. But we all have our challenges every single day and there's a lot of things we can't control. Even as simple as just like, "Gosh, there's just too much traffic and I'm late to get to the hearing," or whatever it might be. But we can control how we respond to that, what we do with it. And to me that's very empowering because it keeps the world in perspective.

What would you say, wrapping some things up here, what are the takeaways? The growth, we've talked about some of this, but when you sit and say, okay, this was an extraordinary experience, 10, 20, 30 years from now, when you look back on this, how did you change? What growth was there for you? What's truly important out of all of this?

Callie Russell:

Well, one thing is I was started this path of learning these ancestral skills because I wanted freedom. I wanted the freedom to be able to go out into the mountains and be able to find food and take care of myself and live how our ancestors used to live. I wanted that sense of freedom. But practicing all this stuff, I realize true freedom is actually within myself, it's within my mind. And it doesn't matter how many skills I have, it depends on the thoughts that I'm thinking. The thoughts that I'm thinking are what allowed me to feel free or not free.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Got it, got it.

Callie Russell:

Yeah, the essence of true freedom.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah.

Callie Russell:

And another thing with working with these skills, spending time in the wilderness and working with these skills is that it's really easy to feel alone in our world. And a lot of people ask me, "Oh, when you were on the show called Alone and you were all alone in the wilderness and it was negative 40 and you only had rabbits to eat, weren't you so lonely? How did you deal with the loneliness?" And I said, "I actually didn't feel lonely out there at all. I felt way more lonely when I was a teenager surrounded by people. I felt way more lonely when I was in college trying to get through college." And I was around people all the time. I was extremely lonely because I didn't have the sense of connection that I wanted, sense of connection with community, with other people, but also with other species.

There's a term that's been coined by Robin Wall Kimmerer, she's an author, called species loneliness. And that we as humans experience species loneliness because our culture, we're sort of brought up not really knowing about the natural world as much. So we don't know the different names, the different species of birds and the different species of trees, even the ones we're around all the time. And once you start making those connections with the natural world, you start to realize we're all connected and we're all a part of things. And working with this stuff is allowed me that sense of connection and time on the show has allowed me that sense of connection. And I think that it's just the web that we're all a part of and realizing we're not alone. We're not alone on our little island. We're all together, we're on the same island, we're in the same boat. And just opening up to that is, I think, so powerful and it feels so good and I'm so happy to be experiencing that and I'm so happy to be sharing that connection with other people.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Folks, one of the things that, because this is an audio podcast, there's lots of things you can't see, but during the presentation that Callie just gave here, we got to see a lot of screenshots and things from the TV show and some slides and things. Trust me when I say that this environment is beyond extreme. Just crazy, snow, cold. She's wrapped up on all kinds of stuff. But at the same time, she showed some photos of the space that she made that eventually even using her word, became home. And it's extraordinary. Rocks, they're flat rocks and she found some clay. I'm thinking mud. And builds a fireplace. And this space is gorgeous.

Now still, it can get 40 below. This is not glamping. But the thing that struck me throughout the entire presentation are these wonderful just glowing smiles and the ability to find the connection and to celebrate and appreciate all that's going on. I never heard you say... Life threw a lot of challenges at you. But as you said, "I'm not looking at the walls, I'm looking for the exits, the doors to keep moving forward." And to me it gets back to just, you are a living, breathing model for me in terms of saying you listen to your life at a level I think most people will never get to. And I just think that's awesome.

But I want you listening to us, folks... I can get emotional about this. She spoke to me in a very deep way. The ability to just see the beauty, appreciate the moment in the face of what so many of us would say is just adversity we could never even manage. But she also stepped in, she took the time to learn the skills. I'm rambling here a little bit. But to me, I guess I'd say it's a message of hope, it's a message of reminding us who really is in control. It's life. And other people can throw all kinds of things at us and we can't control that, but we can control how we respond. And ultimately, that's true control. So I hope you found something of value ina all of this stuff. But Callie, thank you so much for taking a little time to visit with us. Do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share? Anything?

Callie Russell:

Well, just another thing on what you're saying, the resilience of the human spirit.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Okay. Yes.

Callie Russell:

And we all have that. Some people think, "Oh, I would never be able to do that." But I think we all surprise ourselves when we're actually thrown into a challenging situation that we all have a resilient human spirit. And when we are thrown into a thing that we think we can't do and we try to do it anyway, there's so much joy and empowerment coming through that other side. And so to embrace. Embrace that discomfort, embrace getting out of the comfort zone and knowing that we are all stronger than we think we are. And I know me going through that experience when I started, I didn't think it was something that I'd be able to do. It felt like it was too big for me. But I went through anyway and I came out the other end feeling very empowered and realizing I'm stronger than I thought I was.

And I think it's the case for everybody. And so I think that's an important piece. And I think sometimes too knowing, when the life I was living before I started following that pull. I kind of felt this tug on my heart or my soul or something that was like, you need to be doing something else. Before I started listening to that, that I could have kept struggling through the job that I had, or the work that I was doing. But I knew there's a kind of difference between having a hard situation and overcoming it and keeping yourself in a hard... You're creating that hard situation that you know isn't good for you too. And having that courage to say, "Hey, this isn't the kind of struggle that I need in my life. What can I do to change it? How can I change my life so it feels better for me?" And I think that ties into the self care piece.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I appreciate that. Wow. Again, so much stuff. Again, wrapping all this up, to me, Callie's story and experiences is truly at the end of a day, a message of hope that when any of us are facing challenging times, get overwhelmed with work, struggling with whatever our personal demons are, take it one step at a time. Understand you are in control of you, how you respond. Look for the exits or look for the doors.

Callie Russell:

Doorways.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Because that's how you grow. And I do, I love this message and you found this, discovered it yourself in very awesome meaningful ways. We all have strengths in us and we just don't know. So have a little faith. Put that smile on, put your feet in the grass, just start moving and good things will come. So again, folks, thanks for listening. I hope you have a good one. And I look forward to listening with you next time on ALPS In Brief.

Callie Russell:

And get outside.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And get outside. I love it. Thanks, Callie. Okay folks, bye-bye.

 

ALPS In Brief – Episode 65: Saying ”Hell Yes” with Megan Hottman

In this episode of ALPS in Brief, Mark sits down with Megan Hottman, the Cyclist Lawyer. At the age of 29, she did what people told her was not possible — she hung her own shingle and formed Hottman Law Office (HLO), aka "TheCyclist-Lawyer.com." This practice, she says, "is the perfect combination of passion and profession — love of cycling and legal education culminated in this practice; I'm doing what I was meant to do." Hear how Megan blazed her own trail, what's next, and how to know when to say "hell yes."

Transcript:

MARK BASSINGTHWAIGHTE:

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the Risk Manager here at ALPS, and welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. For those of you that have listened to my various stories and podcasts over the years, I had a short series called, Listening to Your Life. And that was telling some stories about cycling. I've done a fair amount of cycling over the years and it's a way I stay in shape and so enjoyed it, particularly in 2020 when we had the shutdown. And boy, that's how I dealt with cycling, or the shutdown, just getting out and putting on a lot of miles. That summer I put in, I think it was over 2,200 miles. So that was quite a summer.

I also have an interest in niche practices. Years ago, I spent many, many years doing some consulting work and have worked with over 1200 firms all over the country. And one of my favorite practices was a niche practice of guy up in Alaska that specialized in dog sled law. And I actually pulled up to the firm in the summertime and there was maybe two parking spaces, but there are about 15 spaces for dog sled teams. It was just an interesting, interesting story, or I should say, interesting experience.

So all of that kind of plays into my guest and conversation we're going to have today. I'm so pleased to be able to welcome Megan Hottman. She is an attorney in Colorado, but I really want you folks to have the opportunity to hear and enjoy listening to Megan. So Megan, please welcome to the podcast and if you want to take a couple of moments and just share anything and everything about yourself. What do people need to know?

MEGAN HOTTMAN:

Well, thank you for having me. What do the people need to know? Well, everyone wants to know how I became The Cyclist Lawyer. And the truth is that I was a cyclist and a lawyer and I became someone who wanted to represent cyclists in my law practice. So that unfolded really just a confluence of events, you might say. I was a baby lawyer, kind of fresh out of law school and I was also an aspiring bike racer chasing the professional bike racing dream. And I wasn't sure how to put the two together because both are very time demanding and energy demanding. And long story short, people that I raced bikes with and against at events knew I was an attorney but had no idea what area of law I practiced in. But a few of them would ask me at events, "Hey, I was hit by a car while I was training. I have no idea what kind of law you do, but is that something you could help me with?"

And I realized that working for people that shared this passion of mine for two wheels, life on two wheels, was very compelling and interesting to me and helping them try to get back in the saddle after having been involved in a collision with motorists. That really is how the practice unfolded back in 2010. And I was scared to death, of course, to start my own practice. I was 29, I'd been out of law school for five years and people said, "Well, you can't start a practice of your own that soon. That's not how this works." And I just felt that to do it the way I wanted to do it and to simultaneously be able to chase my bike racing dreams, I really couldn't work for someone else and be on someone else's schedule, I needed to be on my own schedule. So that's how this whole adventure began. And here we are, 12 and a half years later.

MARK:

That's really interesting because again, I was referring to this dog sled lawyer and a fascinating guy, but it was the same kind of thing. He was a racer, passion, enjoyed it. And other people, he got to know that the circuits and well, I have this problem or that problem in racing. And it's just this kind of organic evolution. And I love that. Folks, this is obviously an audio podcast here and I've had the pleasure of meeting Megan in Missoula at a corporate event earlier this year, but I am so struck by the joy and the passion that you see in her face when she talks about what has happened and her life.

And why I think that's important, I like that you were taking risks and really wanted to go this way. But when I hear your story and interact, I'm trying to remember the name of that, there's a Disney movie where a guy goes out and plays baseball. It's a true story, Disney eyes, but he's a high school coach down in Texas and he ends up trying out for the majors and makes it. But as he's in the minors working up to the majors, he just talks about, "I can't believe. Guess what I get to do today? I get to play baseball." And I see that in you. It seems to me you very much enjoy what you're doing and have found. The one thing I want to say folks is Megan took some risks, but they were so calculated and good risks to take because of the interest and the passion. And I just want you to hear, because I believe niche practices can be very, very successful. Not only financially, but in terms of the lifestyle, the wellness. Would you tend to agree with that, Megan?

MEGAN:

Yeah. I don't even know so much that it's a niche practice conclusion so much as it is doing something that really lights you up more than just the billable hour or the money in the bank. And that's true for everyone, whether they're an attorney or someone else. And even if your job doesn't light you up, having hobbies outside of your job that light you up. I think it's critical more than ever now these days, more than ever. And I'm a big fan of Dan Buettner's work, the Blue Zones, and he talks about what some of the common factors are among people that live to the age of 100 and are in good health. And one of the big ones, in addition to healthy diet, daily movement, a community of people that you are close to, is having a sense of purpose.

And so we can all go to work and punch a paycheck, a pay clock, and work our nine to five or whatever, and that's important. Sure, we need to pay for our homes and our meals and support our families.

MARK:

Absolutely.

MEGAN:

And I felt the calling to it needed to be more than that for me to be successful. In this profession, it needed to be really compelling and important to me. And in addition to serving these cyclists all these years it, I think, understandably grew into a desire to make cycling safer and really within a couple years getting that clarity that my ultimate goal is to put myself out of business. And if we've made cycling so safe that cyclists aren't hit anymore and don't need lawyers like me, that would be the biggest win and the biggest victory ever.

MARK:

Yes.

MEGAN:

And like you, a lot of people came to the bike or came back to the bike during COVID. We really saw this massive bike boom. Actually worked part-time at a bike shop in 2020 just to help one of our local shops out. And the lines of customers were around the block on both sides of the building.

MARK:

Wow.

MEGAN:

Couldn't believe it.

MARK:

Yeah.

MEGAN:

And we had hoped that COVID was going to be the rebirth of cycling for the US and a re-appreciation for how it can be not just a tool for fitness and recreation, but for transportation. And it gave us a lot of hope. And instead, we've unfortunately seen a real change in motorist behavior and everyone is sensing it. There's just an increase of rage and frenzy and anxiety. People are driving fast and reckless and maliciously and we've actually seen a huge uptick really since 2021 in this area, unfortunately.

MARK:

Yeah, that's sad. It doesn't surprise me. My wife and I were in Montana for many, many years and just within the past year we've moved down to central Florida and I still try to ride and I get out, but I will tell you... And I've talked to, we found a physician down here, a really nice guy, and he bikes a little bit, saying, "This is a very, very dangerous area to bike," and for this very reason. The drivers are just crazy. And I see some folks out going, "They need to take a course from Megan because this is not where you want to ride." Just, oh my gosh.

Well that's, talk a little more about the evolution of your practice.

MEGAN:

Yeah.

MARK:

You have these two passions and there's this organic kind of start. How did you though really finesse that to move from, this is an idea, this is a passion? And I think I know the answer based on some of the things you've just been sharing. But it's one thing to have people say, "Can you help out a little bit and do all that?" and turn that in to a full-time practice where you can pay the bills and where you can... I assume you have some staff or others that you work with. Are you solo?

MEGAN:

Yep. Nope, I did have a team. I'm in the process of scaling down, but we did have a team. I was the only attorney, but support staff. Yes.

MARK:

Okay, so how do you get there?

MEGAN:

Well, whether you're in a niche practice or a niche profession or not, one thing I quickly realized was you still want to be really intentional about who you're serving. And early on in our startup, as anyone is in startup mode of any business, you take whatever comes in the door and you're just thrilled that people want to hire you. And so you're a bit of a basket case, you're responding to everything and it's, "Oh, you want me to jump? How high?" kind of mentality. And that's fine for the first couple years. It's not sustainable, but that's part of any startup. And then at least for me, I started to get some clarity on, okay, yes, I want to represent cyclists. But within that group of people there's a subset, there's a specific type of case or a specific type of client that we really want to represent.

For example, I don't find certain types of bike injury cases compelling because I'm so focused on changing motorist behavior that I tend to be less interested, let's say in a cyclist on cyclist collision, on a bike path. That can still be very bad and still someone's at fault, but that is less interesting to me because I'm really more concerned with how do we change the motoring public's perception of cycling. Or if someone rides their bike into wet concrete in a construction zone for example. There's definitely a claim there and someone probably made a mistake. I don't find that interesting because again, I started to get clear on what are the bigger changes and impacts I wanted to have.

And even drilling down within that subset and saying, is there an opportunity here to mobilize the media for the greater good? Does this case lend itself to us going to the legislature and asking for some new laws on this particular topic or in this type of instance? Does this lend itself to us leveraging state or city financial resources to put in new infrastructure to prevent this type of thing happening again? And so just getting really clear on, yes, this particular client certainly deserves their compensation for this horrible thing that has happened to them, but can we make the impact broader than just that client?

And then all along the way, sort of taking stock of, okay, have I let myself now get so spun up and so caught up in the business frenzy that I'm no longer living the life that I want to live myself. And that's easy to do too. I don't care how passionate you are about the subject matter, you can take the entrepreneurial mindset and you can let it get totally out of hand and then it can consume you. And suddenly, you wake up and you say, "Whose life is this that I'm living?" I'm making more money than I ever thought I'd make. I've reached all my goals. This is exciting and amazing and oh my goodness, this is so exhilarating, and yet I'm not riding my bike suddenly. Or my health isn't good, my sleep is breaking down, I'm not managing my own stress very well. What's going on here? So I think it's important to ask those questions too.

MARK:

And I agree. Wellness is a big issue for me in terms of what I do and what I've seen. So many people, attorneys and non attorneys alike, when we talk about malpractice, they want to know, "What are the big mistakes?" And those are important things to look at, but it's not the right question. I'm more interested in why the mistakes occur. And that gets into wellness. There are so much of the malpractice and even the disciplinary issues that are out there have some, more often than not, have some impairment component.

MEGAN:

Yes.

MARK:

Whether it's dementia, stress, burnout, addictions, all kinds of things. That's why the clients might have got neglected. I struggle with depression and on and on, and all these different things. So how did you balance all that? Were there things, as you start to ask yourselves these questions, am I still living the dream or is this getting a little cloudy?

MEGAN:

Great question.

MARK:

What did you do? What was your response?

MEGAN:

There's a couple prongs that I'd like to respond to in that. One is I noticed I was drinking too much. Nothing that affected my work, thankfully, but more than I wanted to be drinking myself. It certainly was affecting my ability to perform as an athlete. Even if you just go to social events and you have a couple glasses of wine, it totally makes your sleep garbage. And then you're just a dull down version of yourself the next day. So just noticing that I was less sharp than I wanted to be, I was less of an athlete than I wanted to be. I just really realized, my goodness, I am diminishing my own capacity with this thing that is such a central pillar of this profession. Between lawyers and entrepreneurs, everything is alcohol centric it seems.

And just decided I wasn't going to engage in that kryptonite for myself anymore because I live a pretty clean, healthy life otherwise. And especially with my focus on getting good sleep, which I do believe is the foundation for a good human existence and experience, here I am undermining even my own sleep with this socialization around alcohol.

So I quit drinking in the end of 2017, very much on purpose with those things in mind. And no surprise, 2018 was an exceptional year business wise, bottom line sword, I rode 10,000 miles on my bike that year.

MARK:

Wow.

MEGAN:

I competed in numerous big bike events, a lot of them on a single speed, 150, 200 mile gravel bike events. And everything went exceptionally well that year. And I thought, wow, this is what it's like when I'm actually firing on all cylinders. This is really great. And I still don't drink. And I preach the sort of alcohol free life. Not in a sense that I think alcohol is bad per se, or I'm not trying to be the fun police, I just do think it's important for us to call into question why we are so socially accepting of something that is so damaging. And in this particular profession, that 2016 Betty Ford study, that's been many years now already, that's six years old, one in three lawyers is a problem drinker. That is terrifying. And yet, when I am at legal events, I have to tell you, I conclude the same thing in my observations.

MARK:

I absolutely agree. Yeah, it's been my experience too in a lot of the things, you get involved around the country, the annual conventions, bar conventions and whatnot, you bet.

MEGAN:

You see it. So on that note, really where your question I think was going was how do you stay in alignment?

MARK:

Right.

MEGAN:

And for me, I personally, I'm not a psychologist, I am not a substance abuse professional or expert, but I personally believe that the reason our substance abuse is so high in this profession is because there's a lot of things that we are not acknowledging and addressing as lawyers and as a profession that inherently drives people to numb out because it is so overwhelming and it is so hard to face. One thing I've really become keen on observing and noticing and learning more about is secondary trauma because I work in the personal injury space. We observe people's trauma in these horrific situations. We don't just cut them on the emergency table, stitch them up, and then go on to the next patient. We live with these clients and their stories for years and we have to convey it effectively as a storyteller at trial.

And so we take on, whether we mean to or not, a lot of that trauma ourselves, vicarious trauma, secondary trauma. And no one's teaching us this and no one's even telling us, here are the warning signs that you're getting too much of that in your life, in your practice. So it does not surprise me that a lot of lawyers turn to substance to try and just numb out for a little bit.

And I'll finish this thought by just by saying I pride myself as being someone who doesn't really numb out, especially once I quit drinking. It was like I'd rather confront stuff head on and say, "What's really going on here?" And as my practice unfolded into year seven, year eight, a lot of that trauma started to catch up with me. A couple cyclists that I knew very well were hit and killed, and I'm involved in their cases. And then that became really overwhelming. And I thought, "What's wrong with me? Why are other lawyers seemingly managing this far better than I am?" And it really started to knock me down pretty hard core. I was planning to take sabbatical at the beginning of 2020, but that's right when COVID started. It was supposed to be March of 2020. And I knew that I needed to punch out for a little bit because I could tell that things weren't okay. That was before I knew about secondary trauma.

And what I've come to realize since, because I was hit by a car this June 5th and very badly injured, was in a wheelchair and relegated to a walker, there were no walks, there were no bike rides, there were no yoga classes, there was no van adventuring, all the things that I really love to do that light me up worked, it's full stop. And I realized in part that those things are a bit of a numbing behavior for me. That is kind of how I escape the stresses of this work.

And so when you strip all those numbing agents away and you really are forced to confront the discomfort. What I've concluded is most of us will go to great lengths to avoid that. It's very uncomfortable. We will look to anything else, whether it's shopping or what have you, as a distraction. And so my advice for lawyers would be to start honoring those nudges because there is something in us that knows when something's not right. And if you're tempted to say, "Oh my God, I really need some wine, I've had a horrible day," or "I can't wait to take the edge off" or what have you, you can still go do that if you feel called to that. But first, ask the question why, what's going on inside me that's got me stolen knots, and pay attention to that.

MARK:

Yeah, yeah. Well said. And I absolutely agree. You had talked too a bit about getting involved in education and trying to do some things to change laws. And I believe there's been some charity work you've been involved at too. Was that intentional, in terms of even if just an organic involvement? I'm not sure else to describe it, but it was that part of the growth of the practice process? Was that part of just a desire to give back? Was that part of trying to keep things, and I really don't like the word balance, but to try to maintain sense of purpose and well-being? How did all that come about?

MEGAN:

Sure. Early on, when I started my practice and started to realize some success, it's incredibly exhilarating to make great money. We're not going to candy coat that. That's why we went to law school, most of us. We'd like to live the lawyer lifestyle. And when you start cashing in on big cases, that's incredibly exhilarating and affirming and it's quite a rush. And for me, that was really great for a few years of just saying, "Wow, this is cool." This has this capacity and I got really involved in real estate and I'm super passionate about real estate stuff. That didn't last very long for me. Yes, you still need to earn money and pay the bills for sure. But then I started to say, well I've now had 20 or 30 or 40 clients hit in bike lanes. What the hell's the point of having a bike lane if we're not going to offer any legal protection for people in bike lanes as one example.

And that really climaxed when I got hit myself in a bike lane in 2019 and I thought, well we've gone to all the trouble to put this on the road and paint the lane and paint it white. And yet, I still got hit here in broad daylight. We need some legal protection. So that prompted myself to partner with one of our legislators to write a bike lane bill here in Colorado, which says that motorists must yield to cyclists in bike lanes. So duh, but the law didn't exist before that. Similarly, with some of my other clients, just starting to observe, we're not being treated fairly by the district attorneys. There's no real prosecution happening of these drivers. No one's losing a driver's license, no one's getting any real punishment, there's no lesson being learned. These drivers aren't suffering whatsoever for the carnage that they're leaving in their wake.

And so started getting more and more involved in the criminal and the traffic cases of my clients, even though that's not part of my civil representation, that I'm not being paid for that part. But as far as the greater good, if there's no prosecution of drivers who harm cyclists, what are we doing here? For me to just move money from insurance companies into client's pockets, yes, that's part of the process, but it needed to be more than that for me.

So started to get involved in educating law enforcement, teaching them what the rules say. Whether they agree with it or not, this is what our legislature has decided. And taking that into teaching bike shops and bike teams what their obligations are so that we can be following the laws as cyclists, talk to several driving schools to teach driving instructors what the laws require as they're teaching our youth how to drive, trying to approach it from all angles of let's make safer cyclists, let's make safer motorists, let's make safer roads. And the truth is that there's advocacy organizations whose entire purpose in all day, every day is focused on lobbying and getting money for the infrastructure in our cities. And so that's the lane that they swim in. I don't need to be in that lane. That's what they do. So I decided to focus on the legal side of things and either writing the laws or dealing with the punishment in the criminal cases because that's of course more uniquely suited to my skillset.

MARK:

Well, as a guy out there on the road at times and enjoying as a fellow cyclist, nowhere near your level, but there's just something about riding.

MEGAN:

Amen.

MARK:

It's a quiet place. And when you're out, really just riding. Around here, I'm still learning and I'm going to have to get a bike rack till some other trails get built. What's coming is going to be awesome, but we're a few years away yet.

MEGAN:

Gotcha.

MARK:

But also thank you for the work that you do. I've always said to even our kids, we can't necessarily change the world, but boy, we can do something in our little corner of it. And if enough of us work on our little corner of it, we can accomplish some great things at a larger level.

MEGAN:

That's exactly right.

MARK:

So that's awesome. Well, you had talked a little bit about slowing down a bit. May I ask, what's next? Where are you going?

MEGAN:

Yeah, great question. I remain open to what the universe directs me towards. It's really cool how just being open, it does open doors to things. I think it's really fun too to just say, why not be curious? Rather than immediately disregard things that seem impractical, why not just see what comes in and what I can call in for myself. I just got off the phone a few minutes ago with a lawyer out on the East Coast that wants to hire me as a bike expert in his case. And I love doing that work, helping other lawyers improve their case for the cyclists that they represent. And adding my unique expertise as an expert for them has been great.

So I'm doing some of that work. And I'm also coaching other lawyers, specifically those who have formed their own firms, to really help them try to get clarity on what their ideal life and how they want this to look and how they want this firm to serve them in the hopes that I can help them avoid some of the pitfalls that I've mentioned for myself, where we get so spun up in it, we kind of forget why we started. So I'm coaching a handful of lawyers and I really enjoy that.

And as you mentioned, I got to speak at the event for you guys in July. I really enjoy doing keynote speaking and those things seem to pop up once or twice a quarter and that's really fun. I do still have my current caseload that I am still in the process of finishing up, and whether I fully withdraw or retreat or not is not clear to me just yet. But I have felt really called here in the front range of Colorado, just the summer specifically, to take on a few cases pro bono, some really heinous hit and run cases.

MARK:

Oh my gosh.

MEGAN:

Two very serious injury cases and one a death case where we have drivers hitting cyclists and leaving the scene, which is just so appalling. I can't even conceive of that. And unfortunately, does often involve impairment of these drivers. So they're not in their right minds, but that's not an excuse. So trying to help those families through the process has been really rewarding for me as I've been recovering from my own collision.

MARK:

And is cycling still in your future? You're going to come back and get back on the bike and keep going?

MEGAN:

Absolutely. Yeah. You probably have to cut my bikes up into little tiny pieces to keep me off of them. One of my favorite things in life is to bike commute. I've really designed a life for myself here in Golden, which is a little subset of Denver. It's a little kind of small town feel, home of Coors and the School of Mines. It's a great place to live if you want to ride your bike everywhere. And so I really, within a 10 mile radius, can do basically everything that I need to do in my life. And that's been one of the things I've missed the most from this collision and these injuries. And I don't know what that looks like going forward because commuting does involve quite a bit of being on the road. I've grown to just love my e-bike for commuting. My car sits in the garage.

Like you mentioned, being on the bike is just such a special time. And then to be able to pair that with a trip that you need to make anyway is just so fulfilling for me. Right now, I am cleared to do a little bit of e-bike rehab. So I've just been doing that on the bike paths, just to keep the knee continuing to come back full strength.

MARK:

Good.

MEGAN:

And that's great for me right now because there's no cars and I can enjoy that. But the truth is that bike paths don't usually get us most places that we need to go and want to go. So it's more of a joy ride.

MARK:

Yeah, I get that. Well, I really appreciate your taking a little time out of your day to visit with us. I will give you a chance, if you have any additional final thought in terms of wisdom you'd like to pass along, you want to share any information about your book, contact info. Whatever you feel comfortable sharing, you've got the last word.

MEGAN:

Okay, cool. Well, my Instagram is where I put out most of my content. And so if people are interested in following along, my Instagram handle is, @cyclist_lawyer, or my website is meganhottman.com. Megan, M-E-G-A-N, Hottman, H-O-T-T-M-A-N.com. Those are great places to find me and contact me if something I've said is calling to you.

As far as words of wisdom, I think I would say yes, we go to law school to be lawyers. That's usually the outcome, that's the objective. But if someone in this profession feels that it's no longer serving them, I would encourage them to give themselves permission to say it's totally okay to pivot. And everything that we learn in law school and everything that we learn in this profession is so beneficial in so many other lines of work.

We've really moved past being a population that picks the one thing and sticks with it for 50 years and then retires. We're really not that anymore. And I don't think lawyers need to expect that's the way either. So if you're sensing that something's not right and it's getting louder and louder, I think what I would also say is that the universe will get your attention. And if you choose not to listen, usually the outcome can be quite drastic. And so it's important to listen to those nudges when they're the size of little pebbles or little rocks before they grow into boulders and meteors. There's something in you that's trying to get your attention and it typically doesn't go away until you acknowledge it and face it full on.

MARK:

And you're a perfect example of the success that can come in so many ways, choosing to listen to your life. And that's how I have said it over the years. But that's wonderful. Well, I wish you all the best in your recovery and whatever the coming chapters in your life hold. I look forward to hearing in future how this all evolves.

MEGAN:

I can't wait to find out too.

MARK:

I get that. All right. Well folks, thank you for listening. I hope you found something of value and I encourage you to check out Megan on Instagram or her website. There's just a lot of really good information on her website, I'll tell you that too, as a risk guy. So that's it, thanks for listening. Megan, it's been a pleasure.

MEGAN:

Same with you. Thank you.

MARK:

Bye all.

 

ALPS In Brief — Episode 65: Cybersecurity Services for Solo and Small Law Firms

In this episode of ALPS In Brief, Mark and the founders of Sensei Enterprises discuss cybersecurity options and support for solo and small law firms. Somebody's got to take care of you and that's just what they do.

Transcript:

MARK BASSINGTHWAIGHTE:

Hello, I am Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS, and welcome to ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. I am back from a trip into the home office in Missoula, and back in the satellite office here in Florida, and have with me two folks that I've just had the joy and pleasure of getting to know over the years, and the privilege to work with a few times over the years at various ABA events, and it's just been a lot of fun.

MARK:

Please help me in welcoming Sharon Nelson and John Simek. Sharon and John are President and Vice President of Sensei Enterprises, which is really the heart of the topic we're going to talk about today. Before we jump into some of the questions and things I'd like us to visit about Sharon and John, may I have each of you take a couple of minutes and share whatever you'd like to share about yourselves? What would help our listeners get to know you a bit better?

SHARON NELSON:

I'll start, and then I'll turn it over to John. What we do at Sensei Enterprise is managed information technology, managed cybersecurity services, and digital forensics. We have three branches, and that means we're running a fire station without a Dalmatian here, so there's always emergencies. It gets very difficult to keep all the balls in the air. We are also married with six children and 10 grandchildren. We're together all day and all night too.

MARK:

I love it.

JOHN SIMEK:

You didn't tell [inaudible 00:01:53], you're a lawyer though.

SHARON:

Oh well.

JOHN:

Do they care?

SHARON:

Maybe. John is the veteran technologist and I am the lawyer, and that's why we decided to work together when we started the company some 25 years ago, more than that now, just a little bit. John was the talent and I was the lawyer/marketer who could sell ice cubes to Eskimos, so that worked out really well for us both.

JOHN:

I'm not a lawyer, as you can probably tell. I'm an engineer by degree, and been involved in technology informally even before the internet. I remember that presidential candidate that was trying to create [inaudible 00:02:40]. Whatever, but back in the days of the modems and all that stuff. But I have a lot of technical certifications, formal training as well. I guess a lot of people think that I should be wearing a pocket protector and have a propeller head. But yeah, as Sharon said, I do the technology stuff, testifying expert as well, because of the forensics and all that. I just got done with a deposition a couple weeks ago that was really entertaining, at least to me, but not for the other attorney.

SHARON:

That's how it's always supposed to turn out. I forgot to say Mark, that I was the President of the Virginia State Bar a few years ago. That was [inaudible 00:03:25].

JOHN:

That's how we ended up in Montana one year.

SHARON:

Yeah, that's how we ended up coming to see you folks out in Montana.

MARK:

Indeed. That's right. That was a good time.

SHARON:

It was a wonderful time.

JOHN:

I did go fishing when we were out there.

MARK:

There we go. Boy, there's no place better. You want to talk about some quiet country time on the river with a fly? A lot of fun. One of the things that I've never really visited with you guys about, I'm genuinely very interested. Sharon, you've talked, years ago, you've been a lawyer for quite some time. How did you make this jump? Was that always the plan to go into this Sensei Enterprise type business, the alternative practice, a non-traditional track if you will? How did this all come about?

SHARON:

Life is full of accidents. As I was a young [inaudible 00:04:22].

JOHN:

We're experts at that.

SHARON:

Oh yeah. When my first child was born, her condition required me to stay home through several surgeries and several years. She's fine, but I ended up working from home as a lawyer. And then, later on after I had been a lawyer and been seriously involved in the Bar Association, I had this very nice man who taught technology to anyone at colleges, and he was helping me computerize my law practice back in the '80s. I was pretty wired up for a solo. But then, he got relocated because of his job, and I said, "What am I going to do without you?" And he said, "Well, I've got this friend down the street, and he's really brilliant, but he's a pain in the butt." And he said, "But I'll set up a lunch, and if you can stand him, then he could do a better job even than me."

SHARON:

I met him for lunch, I could stand him, and so, we started out with him helping me with my law practice technology. Ultimately, he had always wanted his own company, and he just looked at me one day and said, "You know, I could be the talent of a company, and you're a lawyer, and you can sell anybody anything, so why don't we hook up and form a company?" And that's how we got started.

MARK:

Wow. That's awesome. I love that. I love that. Oh my. Can you tell me a little bit about the types of services? You can a little highlight or overview, but can we dig in a little bit in terms of the types of services that you offer? I'm also interested, how would you describe your typical client? I know that you do a lot of work I think with businesses that are not just... You're not limiting your services in other words to law firms. Is what you have to offer, would it be useful, beneficial to solo small firm lawyers around the country?

SHARON:

We actually are devoted to solo small firm lawyers, not that they are an exclusive client roster. We have a client that has over a thousand people.

JOHN:

Not a legal entity.

SHARON:

No, not a legal entity. But in any event, we do all sizes. But we have a special feeling in our hearts for the needs of the solo small, because most companies are not interested in them. They don't really want them, because they can't get much of a profit out of them.

JOHN:

They might have some minimum. Unless you've got 10 bodies or more, they're not interested to even talk to you.

SHARON:

And so, somebody has got to take care of these people, so we really specialize in finding cost-effective things that they can use to do what they need to do. That's been something that we've been celebrated for, is that we do take care of solo and smalls along with the bigger firms. It's been a mix, Mark, and I really feel strongly about that because I was a solo myself, and I know how hard it was to get competent help and to get things that you could afford. And now that cybersecurity is so important, it's really critical that the solo and small firms have people to guide them in a way that's budget-friendly, because this stuff can be really expensive.

MARK:

Yeah, I'm well aware. What types of services can you help? If I'm just a solo stuck here in Florida, or Montana, or Iowa, what can you do for me?

JOHN:

Basically, we do an assessment, an initial assessment, come in there to see what you've got going, and is it appropriate? Should we forklift some things? Are you in the Cloud even? Because today, it's so much more affordable and flexible to be in the Cloud.

SHARON:

And secure, more secure.

JOHN:

Maybe you should be considering that. We do have some clients that are remote, up in Massachusetts as well as down the coast, and we can do a lot of things remotely. Sometimes though, you do have to have boots on the ground, and some folks might have a local person if they need hands-on to something. But generally no, we can get equipment, we can figure it, we can ship it, do all that. But essentially, get you in a position where you're a heck of a lot more secure with your technology.

SHARON:

And you're getting good recommendations from us about what [inaudible 00:09:08].

JOHN:

Stability, backup.

SHARON:

Practice management systems, document management. We can help them work with the companies who have appropriate pricing for solo and small. That's really our niche, is to be able to do that for those people. The solo and smalls are really neglected.

JOHN:

But it really is a unique thing though, because there's not a template. You can't go to the green drawer and pull out a system for a solo.

SHARON:

No. I mean, they all have different needs.

JOHN:

They've got different needs, different things that are important to them, different types of practice, their workflows are different. We really do try to, as Sharon said, customize and make sure that they do have a cost-effective solution. The other advantage I think we have is that we know a lot about the law, and a lot about what lawyers' responsibilities are, and what their-

SHARON:

And what's ethical. And what's ethical has changed, Mark. In today's world, you have to take reasonable measures to protect client data and confidential data. These days, we have gotten to the point where one reasonable measure is having two-factor authentication, because it's almost always free. It comes with Office 365, which so many solo smalls use. You just have to turn it on. That's where of course the problem comes.

JOHN:

That's got to be really hard.

SHARON:

It's the convenience factor, though. They want to get right in. They don't want to have to get a text on their phone, or push a button on their phone.

JOHN:

Type a code.

SHARON:

Type a code, and whatever it is. There's all kinds of two-factor authentication obviously, and you have to help them get past the I don't want the extra step to, I have to have the extra step, because ethics demands this of me, because multifactor authentication stops almost 100% of credential-based account attacks. You don't get us that much better than that.

JOHN:

Especially not when it's free.

SHARON:

Yes, especially when it's free to do. You just have to put up with one little annoying thing that you have to do.

JOHN:

You can trust devices too, so it's not every time. You don't have to do this 30 days, or whatever it is, whatever the period of time is. A lot of folks I don't think realize that. They think when they hear this, they go, "No, I'm not going to do this every darn time I connect." You don't have to.

SHARON:

You said, tell a story. Here's a story. We've been able to successfully convince most of our law firm clients that they must ethically do this. There were several who protested, and they dragged their feet, and they dragged their feet, and then one of them got hit by ransomware. That's what happens when you don't take some advice. First thing they said was, "Okay, we got hit. We were attacked. I guess you were right about that 2FA thing, so could you come back and fix that for us now?"

MARK:

Hard lesson learned, but boy is it a good lesson once they understand it. I'm hearing you can do lots of advising and guidance on terms of how to become secure, taking into consideration regulations we're subject to, the ethical rules, et cetera. I just had somebody call me up yesterday about, they were talking about some other things, and a side question came out. It's a solo setting up her own firm, and she's interested, are there services and people out there that can help monitor the systems to give you a heads up? Her question was, how do I know if I'm breached? Can you help them answer that, or help them deal with that risk?

SHARON:

You have today an ethical obligation to monitor for a breach. That's pretty much been established. Now that you know you have to monitor, that's one reason why we are a managed service provider, because we have all sorts of alarms, and alerts, and we check things like backups to make sure everything is going the way it should.

JOHN:

There's a lot of automation.

SHARON:

There's a lot of automation. The thing is, when something goes wrong, we'll get a notice, so the lawyer is protected by having the managed services and the alerts that will go to their provider. That way, they know right away, they can usually fix it right away, or if the power is out or something like that, they have to wait until power comes back obviously. But that's why you want someone watching over all of this for you, because the average lawyer has no idea what any of these alerts mean. These things go off, and they're clueless. You want that in the hands of a professional, and it's not very expensive to get it. And so, this idea of endpoint detection and response, this is another thing that we would say is reasonably required in order for you to monitor for those breaches.

JOHN:

It's not just monitoring, it's also-

SHARON:

React.

JOHN:

Yeah, it reacts to it. Artificial intelligence is a part of what the tool uses, in conjunction with human beings in a security operation center. If you get a ransomware attack as an example, or there's some rogue process that comes and starts and the system sees that, wait a minute, this is outside of baseline operation, and it can even automatically take the device off the wire, off the network. But they have, at least the solutions that we're implementing for our clients, it has a rollback capability. If it's got a problem, and you say, "Shoot, you know what? Let's go back to 30 minutes ago," and put your system back into a state before this happened, and we've got that ability.

SHARON:

It's really kind of magic to lawyers. As much as we try to explain it, and John did in fairly simple terms, they really don't get it. They just get that the magic works.

MARK:

Right. That's okay. They don't need to get it. If they have somebody like you behind the scenes taking care of it, they just need to make sure these kinds of things are in play or in place. May I also assume that if I have, I do stupid on my laptop, and I get hit with something that we talk about ransomware as a classic example, are you also offering services to help me address and deal with these kinds of breaches?

SHARON:

Absolutely. That's what you do.

JOHN:

I do want to point out though Mark, all the technology and things that we do do, you cannot fix a human being.

MARK:

Right. Oh boy.

SHARON:

Who clicks on a phishing email or a phishing text?

JOHN:

Sharon talked about a story. We had a story from... What's today? Thursday. I think it was either Friday, or it was no longer than a week ago. We've got all these things in place, the software, [inaudible 00:16:33], whatever, and yet we've got a lawyer that gets this message, and then he actually initiates a phone call-

SHARON:

To the bad guys.

JOHN:

To the bad guys, and then is carrying on this conversation, and under his own ID, he's opening up his machine to this caller, and I'm going, "I can't stop that."

SHARON:

They finally asked him to enter some bank information-

JOHN:

And he got suspicious.

SHARON:

Then he finally got suspicious and severed the connection.

JOHN:

He called us and we said, "Whoa, hold on."

SHARON:

But that kind of thing happens a whole lot. People do stupid stuff, and of course now everybody is on their phone a lot, and so the phishing via text has become a big deal. They call that smishing. People will fall for that. They'll get something that says, "You just made a purchase for $500, and if you didn't make this purchase, you've got to do this, or call there."

JOHN:

Click here or whatever.

SHARON:

Whatever. Don't click. Don't call. People are not thinking.

MARK:

I'm hearing we have full service, which I'm not surprised, but I just want to underscore all of this. John, you raised a very, very good point. I'm often writing and lecturing about some similar things. Regardless of what IT does, we still have to deal with the reality of the human factor. You can't patch that. You can't. We have to do some training here. Is that something you guys do as well? Are there any training resources available for solo small firms?

SHARON:

The best training resource I know of is somebody who is not in your own company, in your own law firm. It's somebody from the outside who carries a bigger bat and has a reputation. That's why we started out long ago doing cybersecurity awareness training for law firm employees, and we do it remotely, which of course people have gotten used to that now. We have a PowerPoint, and we talk through the PowerPoint. We only charge $500 for an hour. Trust me, they can't absorb more than one hour, because this stuff is complicated, and they have to pay attention. An hour is about right. You might want to do it more than once a year. You might want to do it twice a year. At $500, most law firms can afford that, even the solos and the small firms, because it's a whole firm price. We're there for an hour, and we answer questions as we go along, but we can show them the phishing emails and all the stuff. We talk about social engineering, and all the stupid stuff they do, like sharing and reusing passwords.

JOHN:

The latest attacks.

SHARON:

The latest attacks. We [inaudible 00:19:30] the latest information. Nonetheless, people forget. The stat that's most interesting to me, Mark, is that over 80% of successful attacks involve a human in some way or another.

MARK:

Right. Good stuff. One of the reasons I really was excited about visiting with the two of you again, is to try to find or create awareness about resources that are out there, because there are so many places where there is, if you will, nothing locally. When you talk about this preventative educational piece, just as an example, at $500 a pop, I sit here and say, as a risk guy, two or three times a year? That's chump change, and absolutely essential to do in my mind, when I compare the potential loss of time, worry, money, data, all kinds of things, if somebody just does something stupid and clicks on the wrong thing, and we get hit with ransomware, and it's all gone, locked up.

JOHN:

I think the other requirements you're going to have Mark too though, and what we're seeing a lot of, is that the cyberinsurance carriers are now in their renewals and in their applications, they want to know, are you getting training for your employees?

SHARON:

That's one of the questions, and they don't want to hear no, or they might charge you more, or they might offer you less coverage. We've seen it all. Cyberinsurance is driving the solo and small firms crazy.

MARK:

Here's one as a side comment following up on that, please folks, if you're filling out these applications, don't lie. If you say you're doing something, and a policy is issued based on those representations, it's just the same as malpractice insurance or anything else. If it turns out you aren't having these trainings and you don't do these other things that you say you are doing or have in place, that's going to jeopardize coverage. Just a little side note there, be very careful and honest about answering this. I don't want to keep you too much longer, and I really, really appreciate you taking some time today. Could we close maybe with some thoughts about what are the top two or three things that you think lawyers in this space need to be concerned about, focused on perhaps, and/or a tip or two to address these kinds of things? Just a quick wrap.

SHARON:

Are you talking about cybersecurity in particular, Mark?

MARK:

Yes.

JOHN:

I think Sharon has talked about the things that certainly are really high on my list, and that's the multifactor authentication, the EDR systems, endpoint detection response.

SHARON:

And an incident response plan, which only 36% of attorneys have an incident response plan, and it is so critical, because if you fail to plan, you plan to fail. That's an old chestnut of a line, but it's really true. You have got to have a plan, and you probably need somebody to consult with you a little bit, because there's no absolute template out there that fits everybody. You can start with one, but you really need to have somebody who knows what they're doing help you out with developing a plan. It's not all that hard, it's just that people don't do it. And then, if they do do it, then they leave it to molder, and of course nothing stays the same in this world, especially cybersecurity. In a year, if you haven't looked at it and done anything with it, some portion of it is probably quite obsolete.

JOHN:

But I think the critical foundation for that whole thing, before you even get down to saying, how am I going to respond, what does my IRP look like, is inventorying your assets and your data. If you don't know you have it, you can't protect it.

MARK:

That is an excellent point. Yes. That's absolutely an excellent point. I appreciate your time here. Before we wrap it up, I do want to give you a moment to share. If any of our listeners have a need and desire to reach out to you to discuss the kinds of things that you can help them out with, how can they get a hold of you guys?

SHARON:

Our phone number is 703-359-0700, and our website is senseient.com, or of course you could search Sensei Enterprises. We have all different kinds of folks in the office, and we'll funnel you to the right people. Very happy to do that, and always happy to have a no-cost consult if people have some questions they'd like to ask. We do a lot of that at the beginning, and then it turns out that they do in fact have a need, which is harmonious for us both. But if it doesn't work out, at least we've tried to help. And so, we would encourage that, Mark. I hope that's helpful.

MARK:

Yes, it is very much so. To those of you listening, I hope you found something of value out of today's podcast. My intent again today, I just am trying to find solutions. I get so many calls of, who do I turn to? This is a rough space at times, and lawyers just feel left out and unsure who to reach to. I assure you, these two and the business they have, these are good folk, and it's a great business. I would not hesitate reaching out at any time. John, Sharon, thank you very much for joining me today. John, good fishing, and hope you guys take care of those grandkids and kids. Boy, that's a busy, crazy life, but I'm sure it's exciting. That's just awesome. I'll let you get back to it, guys. Thank you for listening. Bye-bye, all.

SHARON:

Thank you very much.

JOHN:

Bye-bye.

MARK:

Bye-bye.

ALPS In Brief – Episode 64: Project Destination

Transcript: 

 

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte quick, the risk manager here at ALPS, and welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. I'm on the road today and out in South Dakota at a convention and have had the pleasure to meet Tamara Nash. And she is the director of experiential learning and a lecturer at the University of South Dakota School of Law. And first, I just want to say welcome.

Tamara Nash:
Thank you.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
It's a pleasure. Before we get into the topic that we're going to be discussing today. I would love to... Just to have you share a few things about yourself. Introduce yourself. What does the audience need to know and enjoy hearing about?

Tamara Nash:
Sure. Yeah. So I am a recent transfer to the law school, but I would say probably, more importantly, I'm a proud aunt, first-generation law student, and first-generation college student. I am a serial joiner. So bar junkie.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
I love it.

Tamara Nash:
Yes. I just... In the midst of joining clubs and organizations, I'm usually there. So really involved in the South Dakota State Bar, American Bar Association, and the Young Lawyers Division. I love to bake. I try to rival Betty Crocker cupcakes.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh, with kindred spirits there on some things. I can see that.

Tamara Nash:
Yes. It's my de-stressor. But yeah, just... I like to be with friends and family and fellowship and try to find time to watch a good show on Netflix here or there.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh yeah. Yeah. I get that too. Well, let me ask, what initially brought you into law? Where's the interest? How did that arise?

Tamara Nash:
So really interesting. I actually had a sixth-grade project that planted the whole seed and it's actually all tied into Project Destination. And I think we'll kind of have an interwoven conversation that ties into this question. So in sixth-grade, I had a teacher and we did a mini society project and we had our own country name. We made our own money. And at the end of the year, we had our own stations where we did our own thing. Some of us sold stationary. One of our classmates sold hot dogs, which is really questionable when you trust sixth graders to cook and sell you hot dogs. But we were doing our thing and one of the classmates who was selling hot dogs, his classmate fired him because he wasn't pulling his end of the weight and he was very upset about that.

Tamara Nash:
So my teacher said, "Hey, you can do something about that." So our class had a wrongful termination lawsuit and-

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh my gosh.

Tamara Nash:
... Some of us were jurors. We had a judge and I was his lawyer. And it was really fun. We had a really good time and we won. I don't know if fair practices happened. I don't know if we played by the rules, but my teacher, Mr. Summit, the best teacher I've ever had said, "I think you really enjoyed that." And he brought in three black women attorneys to come talk to me. We sat in the cafeteria and they told me what it was like to be a lawyer and what it meant, and just always stuck with me. Of course, I still had to go to high school. I still had to go to college. But then it became time to figure out what's next? And I took the LSAT and enrolled at the University of South Dakota.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
That is such a cool story. And what a creative teacher. You know just... We all have certain favorite... My favorite teacher was Miss Fleschmann from third grade. But we have these memories and it's fascinating in terms of the impact that they have long-term in your life.

Tamara Nash:
Absolutely.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
These seemingly small kinds of interesting things, but boy did they have big ramifications? We had brought up Project Destination, and that's really what I am interested in learning about myself and sharing with our listeners. So what is Project Destination? Maybe that's where we start.

Tamara Nash:
Absolutely, would love to tell you. So at its core, it's a pathway or pipeline program that goes into schools. We target students, anywhere from elementary school to high school. We have gone into post-secondary and really just plant the seed that, "Hey, have you considered the legal profession?" We're open to talking to any student, but we specifically target Native American students. In the South Dakota Bar, we have about 2,700 lawyers, but we have anecdotally, maybe 10 to 15 Native American attorneys. Our bar doesn't collect demographic details on ethnicity or race. So I say anecdotally because that's looking around the bar and kind of counting what we have. So that is our most underrepresented group of attorneys. So we want to find a way to reach that population. And it's quite profound to go into a school and speak to a group of individuals who don't see people who look like them and say, "Hey, have you thought about this? You can do this."

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right. Yeah.

Tamara Nash:
And especially put forth an example that looks like them. And that was the experience I had in sixth grade. To see an example of myself, of someone who says, "Hey, I look like you. And this is what I do. And you can do it too." So Project Destination essentially goes into the school, does a moderated panel, and just chats with students about what it means to be a lawyer. The panelists who are all young lawyers, hopefully as diverse as we can make it. So a corporate attorney, a prosecutor, a defense attorney, a general practice attorney, and explain what they do every day. Talk about law school, talk about the bar, and just let students know that this is an attainable goal. And the goal is essentially holding up a mirror to a student and letting them know that this idea is attainable, so.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
What I love about this too, just in terms of... And sharing with all of you. Listening to this, the smile, the authenticity of your story, investment, it just... I find it God bless kind of thing, but it seems to me you're paying it forward. You know you're continuing what this teacher did in very creative and meaningful ways. That's awesome. How old is this program?

Tamara Nash:
Yeah, so we're still new-ish. We were able to start the program in 2017. And then of course, COVID happened.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh, wow. Yes.

Tamara Nash:
We're all familiar with that caveat, right?

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Right.

Tamara Nash:
So we came out the gate running the year that we launched it. Our then Young Lawyer Section President, now Judge Abby Howard, launched with a strong start. We reached about 150 students. We had about 25 young lawyer volunteers. And then we pivoted to a virtual setting. So we are thrilled to get back into the schools in person this bar year.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. And would you say you're finding a lot of success with it and how are you measuring that right now? Because I assume nobody has gone off to law school quite yet. We haven't been there quite long enough, but.

Tamara Nash:
Yes. Yes. So I would say, yes. We have had success. And I would say we measure that in a couple of ways. So success in just a purely objective way, we've been recognized by the ABA Young Lawyers Division and the ABA broadly with two awards. In 2017, we received a grant from the Young Lawyers Division, it's the embracing diversity grant. And that seeks to recognize any pipeline pathway program that digs in and does the work. And so we submitted Project Destination in its first year and we won second place and received a thousand dollars to keep doing the work. So we continued. And then in 2020, the ABA recognized us with the partnership award, which essentially looks at any bar program doing DENI work, that says, "Hey, tell us what programs you're doing. How can we put forth a model so that other bars can replicate it?"

Tamara Nash:
And we were recognized with that award at the 2020 ABA Meeting. But I would say more importantly success in the context of the profession and pathway and pipeline programs is not necessarily measured by numbers. This work is measured by the ripple effect. Reaching one student is success. And if you go to a school and there's one student in the room that you reach, that is point blank, success. The effect that you have by touching one student's life impacts generations.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Oh, I agree.

Tamara Nash:
So you have... My teacher reached me and I came to law school and that pays dividends for me, my hopeful children to come in the future, and their children. And so that is success that's profound. So our goal is not to hit an X number of students per year. Our goal is to reach one child and to change their perspective of what they are capable of.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
It's the butterfly effect.

Tamara Nash:
Yes. Absolutely.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah. Yeah. Is part of this too, to try to... I mean, South Dakota is not unique in terms of rural states and some of the problems we face. There are lots of unmet needs and I would anticipate... I'll be honest and say, I don't have firsthand knowledge. But I would anticipate there are probably a fairly significant portion of people on the reservations that do not have access in terms to legal services. Is part of the intention or desire of the program to meet that need as well?

Tamara Nash:
Yes.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Okay.

Tamara Nash:
Yeah. So I think part of the need... It's multifaceted. It's to change the perspective of the community to not just a negative perception, to create that exposure, to shift a dynamic and perception of a student's own capability, but also to meet those legal services needs. And there's that multidimensional need in the rural nature that a lot of our reservations have, but also in the demographic need that we do not have lawyers who look like the communities we're serving. And that is very problematic because it continues to... I think creates a lack of trust in our system and we should represent the people we're charged to serve. And so I think that is that dual issue that we're hoping to address and I think more broadly we have rural deserts that we want to serve. So Project Destination serves our broader community in rural schools where we have students who may not have an attorney for miles upon miles. So it's a win-win in all facets, but also gets students through the door who are underserved.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
So how do you see... We've come out of COVID and we're kind of finding our feet again and that's awesome. Where do you see the program? What does it look like in five years?

Tamara Nash:
Yeah. So-

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Where are we moving toward?

Tamara Nash:
Yeah. I hope that we move towards a more cohesive approach with our broader bar. And I'm really excited for our leadership. We have just immense support by our bar presidents, our bar commission, and our executive director. But to really be all on one page and all moving forward. So it's the full force of the South Dakota Bar and throwing all our efforts and all of our energy,. You kind of can't be a bar of jar marbles throwing on the ground, scattered in different directions. But I think playing the long game to decide what age groups we target and why that matters.

Tamara Nash:
A lot of the research shows that early intervention for pathway is actually more effective. And I think folding in broader strategies for pathway. Financial education, which folds into student debt research, which we know is the number one problem.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
That's a huge issue.

Tamara Nash:
Yes. I know that very intimately as a young lawyer. But folding in those strategies discussing access barriers to the profession and to law school. So I think just really having honest dialogues around the profession, around pathways, not just encouraging students to come, but really looking at why some folks have not been able to get into the profession and why they leave. Because retention and attrition are also issues.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Well, that's an excellent point. Yeah. I do a lot of education just on attorney wellness. And boy has COVID made those issues even far more significant and then you factor in these debt issues and all. So many things to-

Tamara Nash:
The onion.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly, right. You know I kind of want to ask an open-ended question. What about Project Destination and all of this... What do you really want to share? Just go wherever you want to go with it.

Tamara Nash:
Sure. So I think what I would love to share is that I think some folks don't know where their place is in this conversation. And it's all of our battles. We all have a place and a stake in this conversation and in the effort of pathway efforts. I think we would see our efforts move so much more quickly. The needle would move forward much more seamlessly if we all bought into that idea and into that notion. So I would just really like folks to know that. We're all part of this conversation. We all have ownership. And it's just a matter of understanding where we are in the conversation when we amplify the voices of others. When we step in as an ally it matters to our profession just immensely and we all owe it to our profession to pay it forward and be a part of enriching our profession and servicing our community.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Hmm. Yeah. I get where you're going with that. You know I talk about some similar issues at times. Again, in what I do in risk management and ethics and things, you hear a lot of lawyers complain about problems that bars face. And they never want to do anything about it. You know? If you want to complain, okay. I think it's... You should have the freedom and the ability to complain a little bit, but not if you're not willing to step up and try to do something about solving the problem. You know? That's so important. I love hearing the story and learning a bit more about Project Destination. You have obviously been very involved with this and I suspect have a great deal of intellectual capital in projects like this. Would you be open to having folks listening if anybody has some interest and just being a resource?

Tamara Nash:
Absolutely.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
May I have you share a little contact information with people so?

Tamara Nash:
Yes. So I would love to chat about how we can serve as a resource, share ideas, collaborate, and expand it beyond South Dakota. My email is probably one good resource. So that is T-A-M-A-R-A, P as in Paul, N-A-S-H, numeral one, @gmail.com. And then you can always reach out to me by phone and that's 712-301-9224. And I would love to see this grow and expand and see other bars incorporate it, make it better, and enrich it. I think that the beauty of bar service is we replicate and implement how it serves our members best.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
Well, I really have enjoyed visiting with you. The excitement is contagious. I love the story of how you got here and how you are using... As I see it, this childhood experience had such an impact, but you've played that out in spades in so many ways and are... I just think it what a fascinating story. So thank you for taking your time to sit down-

Tamara Nash:
Thank you for having me.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
... And visit with me. I will say. Do you have any final comments? Anything else you'd like to share?

Tamara Nash:
No, I would say take the program, make it better. We're excited to see what you do with it.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:
All right. All right. Well, sounds good. Well, folks, I hope you found something of value today and enjoyed hearing Tamara's story. I found it very, very interesting. Thanks for listening. And of course, if any of you have any thoughts on ideas, topics, and other things you'd like to hear on the podcast, please don't hesitate to reach out to myself as well. It's M bass, M-B-A-S-S, @ALPSinsurance.com. Thanks for listening again, all. Bye-bye. Have a good one.

ALPS In Brief – Episode 63: Relationships and First Impressions

Transcript:

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS, and welcome to the latest episode of ALPS in Brief, of the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Over the years, the more I do these podcasts, the more I've come to just enjoy telling stories. I've been telling stories for years and years in my writing, and in a lot of the [inaudible 00:00:39] presentations I have done over the years. I just enjoy a good story, and I think it's a great way to learn some things. So, today is another little, what I guess I come to call a mini-sode, where it's just me sharing some stories and an insight or two from them. What I want to talk about today, for those of you that have listened to some of these podcasts over the years, you know my wife and I are, are Disney Vacation Club Members, Disney people, if you will, and have been so blessed to be able to travel literally a number of places all over the world with Disney.

It's been a special thing for us. Well, we also are cruisers, and we recently returned from a long, extended cruise, had the privilege of being able to spend some time in Hawaiian Islands, and then sailing around the islands for a bit, and then crossing the Pacific, sailing from Hawaii up to Vancouver, which will be important here in a moment. But it was a really interesting trip, and I want to tell you two or three things that happened on this trip that sort of prompted this podcast topic. The first, I don't know if, for those of you that know nothing about Disney cruises, it is, at least when it first started, Disney came out with what they call rotational dining. So, they have several, if you will, featured signature restaurants on each ship, and you have an assigned table and a staff that will move with you throughout the cruise to the different restaurants. It's a lot of fun.

This particular trip, the first night you sit down, and you meet your staff that's going to take care of you, and it was an interesting experience. We enjoy getting to know the staff and oftentimes staff on these ships are from multiple countries. I think they were saying this time, there are 50 countries represented among the staff. So, you get to know them. My response to that first evening was not a disappointment, I mean, in terms of what happened, but it was a little bit different than what is sort of more typical on these cruises. In short, the gentleman that would be our sort of the lead waiter was an interesting fellow, and I would just say, I didn't hit it off immediately. We just didn't click. The first impression was not a good one, and in part, and what happened over the next two nights, it was more about him wanting everybody that was in his section, I guess, is the best way to put it, to know that he was struggling financially, and had had some problems.

Now, I don't want to minimize that. He certainly did have some challenging situations, but one does not start a relationship out by sharing just how rough life is, and how hard he's having to work, and how difficult, and the sacrifices being made and all that. Of course, over the course of a cruise, you get to know some of these people in the other tables, and these cruises aren't completely packed, because we're still coming out of the pandemic. So, in other words, just less people, and more opportunity to get to know all the people on the ship. All of us were really feeling like we were being played a little bit, sort of working the sympathy card, trying to just get large tips at the end of this cruise. It just struck me the wrong way, not how to enter a good relationship. That was sort of even further confirmed near the end of the cruise. I'm used to having people share the importance of feedback, and Disney, I assume they do this on other cruises and things.

But, you fill out these comment cards, and I understand the Disney model. You need to, I mean, if you really have a bad, bad experience, you should certainly share that, and I have, and would do so in a responsible way, but I don't want to just try to make it hard for somebody to earn a living. But at the very end, we were told, this is in terms of our, this gentleman, this waiter, this is my expectation of what you will do, so that I can continue on kind of stuff. I got to say that left a bad taste in my mouth. Now, that's one story, and it's kind of shortening some things here. The second thing that was sort of interesting, got me thinking about this all again, podcast topic. We got to Vancouver, and in the middle, and I'll readily admit, sort of my fault in terms of not thinking everything completely through, just running with an assumption.

Dis was very good about telling us, we have to hear are all the things we need to do to get on the ship, and here's what we need to do get into Canada terms of vaccine status, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and there were a ton of us on the ship that were all set to go, and just didn't think through the fact that we're in an international airport and flying into the United States internationally. I mean, you've been in Hawaii, and you got, and you can't get back into the United States via and international flight without a COVID test within 24 hours of boarding the plane. None of us had this. I should say, very few of us on the ship had this first off awareness, let alone any kind of arrangements being made. The odd thing, you can drive across the border. You can walk across the border. You can swim across the border. You can take a bus, a train everything. You don't need to prove any, but if you're in Vancouver or any other international airport, you need to have this COVID test.

So, a few days before we get there, we're talking to guest services, bringing all this out and short story is the Vancouver airport has more than ample facilities out there to handle even a large number of walk-ups. This is what we're being told. So, that's fine. We'll get off the ship, and go out to the airport, get tested and assuming all's good, fly home, and did turn out all was good. So, that's sort of a side note, but going through the process of COVID testing and trying to get that set up at the airport was just crazy. Talk about an exercise in futility and just, oh my gosh, very poorly, and this is not dissing, this is sort of the airport authority, I guess. I'm not sure who all setting this up, but very little explanations to how this works, and lines of people everywhere.

They had one gentleman who was really charged with trying to help everybody, and explain what to do. He would talk, he's masked up, because he still have masks here in Canada in public areas, transportation, buses, trains and all that. But, so it was a little hard to understand, a little bit of an accent, which you know, it is what it is, but it just made understanding him a little bit more difficult, but he would say, "You take a picture of this QR thing, and get started. Pick an appointment. Don't worry about the time. It might even be tomorrow, but you're in the system. You pay your bill, and you can get in line, and we'll get this taken care of. Well, and he would say, he'd stand there and say, "I'm going to help. I'm here," but he'd keep moving around and disappear. People just getting incredibly frustrated, and your whole response to this entire setup and system, and what's going to happen was being colored by this experience with the first contact.

One fellow traveler, I just had, kind of just watched him. God bless him, but it's just, oh my gosh, he was doing everything he could not to lose it, and as respectfully as he could, he gets in this guy's face, the guy's trying to help us all, and he just starts yelling. He says, "I can't understand you. Your words are muffled. You aren't speaking clearly, and when you say things to do this, you don't give us the instructions. You're not staying here. You're not following through. You say you'll help us from start to finish, and you point at the QR code and disappear, and the app isn't working." It wasn't working for a lot of us and he was correct. He just ends by saying, "You need to go back to school and get some good communication training. Your communication skills are horrible," and he was right.

What could have been a process of getting people through this whole system easily in an hour, turned out to be a good two and a half hours, if not more, for some folks. It was so messed up. A number of people actually missed flights out and just, it just didn't need to be that way. So, it's just two sort of stories, and what I got to thinking about was first impressions. I've written and talked over the years in some various presentations on the importance of first impressions in terms of establishing relationship. I have typically come at it from the perspective of, is your reception desk clean? Is the, do you have a professional presentation in terms of the space? Is the office tidied up? Does the website look all nice and pretty, et etcetera cetera? It's physical first impressions, and I don't want to minimize that. I think that is incredibly important, because it's, if you will, sort of some passive communication.

But I want to talk about personal first impressions. I can share my first impression with this waiter was not good, and I really was put off by being told what the expectations are, being played for as much money as he thought he could get out of me, those kinds of things, and it's very, very difficult to recover from that. We really, my wife and I were very intentional after the first night, saying, "Oh, this is ridiculous," but trying to really get to know him, trying to invest, because it's a long cruise. You want to have fun, and, and there were times where it worked, and we really did have a good time. I'm not trying to take anything away from, I mean, this guy is who he is, but did his job well, but there were these times where it just, it wasn't perhaps even authentic. Then you get to the airport situation, and the experience, the first impression that you have trying to get into the system, into the process.

So, [inaudible 00:12:28] translate this into your law office and working with you and your staff. If the first impression is really bad, that colored the entire rest of the experience with everybody else you work with, and I'm glad we got through it. It didn't really ruin or spoil anything for us, but it didn't have to be that way. So, I would encourage you to think about some first impression issues in terms of relationship. So, let me share some thoughts and kind of perhaps tips, if you will, things that I think are worth keeping in mind. When I think about it initially, trying to consider a lawyer, I'm obviously going to, in most instances, it's either referral or perhaps a website, and I'm looking, and I would hope we have that initial contact, at least on the web or mobile. It's very professional looking, et cetera, et cetera.

But that's go beyond that and say, now I'm reaching out to the firm to try to set up appointments, that initial consult or whatever it might be. That should be very, very easy on mobile or on a website. But if I call in, I really do expect to talk to someone in-person. I may have some questions or two. I just want to get a sense of are they welcoming? Are they professional, that kind of thing. Voicemail, doesn't cut it in my mind. These dial one if, and here's all the music and on and on and on. Make it easy for me to communicate with you. If you're true solo, and not always available, sometimes that can even be accomplished, oh, just with an answering service, some type of professional answering service.

I just think that's very, very worthwhile, but now let's really get to the heart of where I'm trying to go with all this, and talk about you. So, I'll be the perspective coming in. What kinds of things can you do or perhaps not do if [inaudible 00:14:55] are going to help establish the beginning relationship, in terms of setting the right impression, getting started on the right foot, because it's going to be a lot harder to correct something if this gets off on the wrong foot. Okay? So, some things that I think about, try to just be authentic. Don't put on airs. Don't, I encourage you, if authentic isn't, a lot of time, I work from home, et cetera, T-shirt and cutoffs and flip flops. Hey, that's fine, but at the office or meeting me downtown or wherever it might be, look a little bit professional, but be authentic in the communication.

"Hey, it's a pleasure to meet you Mark," and be authentic and sincere when you say that. Have a little chit-chat up front. We don't need to immediately get to why are you here outside of the cold calls. Hey, do you do divorce or something? I'm assuming we're past that, but have a little chit-chat, and it can be as simple as, How's the weather or what's [inaudible 00:16:10] a day. Did you see that ball game last night? But something to get some casual conversation going to allow the opportunity for a relationship to build, to just get established. I want to know that I'm working with a person that's again, genuine, real, authentic. Okay? So, some things to think about, but also understand at the same time, and I can appreciate this might be a little bit difficult, but you never know.

I think most people are going to have some questions or concerns about, I wonder what this is going to cost, and there's this, and we have to have that conversation. I mean, I really believe good lawyers have conversations about money up front, and thorough, and good conversations about money. But you might allow that conversation to be dictated or driven by the client. So something you could say early on is, "You're probably wondering what this will cost. Would you like to talk about that now? Would you like to talk about that at the end? I'm going to need a little information here," but try to get a sense, so you don't have somebody sitting visiting with you for half an hour, 45 minutes, wondering, "But can I even afford, is this worth my time?"

You can find ways to help them feel at ease about that money conversation by letting know you're thinking about it, letting know we'll have it, and they can dictate a little bit about when they'd like to have that conversation. But again, I would not jump there until you chat them up for a little bit. Make a connection. We need to begin to build a relationship. So, okay. One of the other things I wanted to talk about as we continue with this, in the context of a, this initial consultation, this initial meeting is, what other types of communication things can you do to help get this started on the right foot? So, in the context of the conversation, please don't multitask. I mean, how many times I, it drives me crazy, and I'll just never understand it.

I've watched time and again, and one situation, that's so struck me, I watched four couples come into a restaurant, a very nice restaurant that I happened to be dining with a friend at, [inaudible 00:18:53] at business actually. These four couples sat down and it was every other, guy, girl, guy, girl, guy, girl, all the way around the table. All four guys are on their phone the entire evening, not talking, just sitting, drinking their beer, occasional something. The women are all chatty, but clearly not really happy about all these guys just sitting here on their phone. I mean, how can you have a relationship or conversation? The messages you're giving, give the attention to this perspective client. They are considering retaining you. They are considering turning over their legal concern to your trusted hands. So, allow them to build that trust. Okay? So, don't multitask, no tax thing, no thinking about other matters, no working through your email.

Okay? Don't pontificate on things. The initial time is really to sit and try to learn as much as you can about whatever the situation is, so you ... I mean, the goal here is, can I help you in terms of what this is, what you're thinking? How do I best help you? How do I best serve you? What all can I do? This isn't a time to just pontificate on all sorts of things. It's time to get to learn who they are. Use open-ended questions. Can you tell me more about this? Don't assume you know what they want. They may be thinking about a divorce or something, but maybe divorce isn't really what should happen in this situation, and there's some other things you could assist them with or direct them toward.

I don't know. But I, running with assumptions is dangerous. Find out what the problem is. Ask questions> sort of go with the flow and see where it takes you. If you don't know something, honestly, say, no. I'd rather know that somebody doesn't have an answer. I don't know, but I could look it up. I don't know, but I've, I could make a referral here, whatever the situation calls for. But, if you don't know something, say so, and again, in my mind, honesty instills trust, and faking it fosters doubt. I mean, that seems clear to me. That's just a normal response. So, try to stay out of the weeds in these early meetings, in particular. If somebody is sharing some things, don't get into all the nitty-gritty of the legal stuff. Now's not the time. We're still relationship-building.

Okay? Learn to listen, truly listen. I remember, Steven Covey is known for saying most of us don't listen with the intent to understand. Most of us listen with the intent to reply. I'll be the first to admit, a little honesty here, folks. I am really good at listening with the intent to reply. I struggle with that problem day in and day out. You can just ask my wife. She'll say, "Amen, Hallelujah." But there are times when I really do try and focus and listen to her, and really listen, but I have to remind myself. I have to be very intentional about it. She is not asking for my advice here. She's just wanting to talk, and wanting to share, and perhaps work through something. I will listen, and when you really start to listen, then you can ask the questions to draw out, and you get a much, much better understanding, not only of the issues, but of the person you're interacting with.

You really get to know someone. My wife is so skilled at this. It's amazing. No matter where we are, in what community, she knows everybody. For many years in her practice, people would walk in, and she hasn't seen one of these patients for a year, and she'll say, "Well, how is your nephew? Wasn't your nephew going off to college?" Or, "How's your granddaughter, and Doctor, how do you remember all this? She just does. She is very, very good at that, because she listens more than, better than most people I've ever had in my life. So, it's a skill, and she practices it, and been practicing it for years. But I encourage you to do that. Just approach it from, I am trying to create an attorney-client relationship here that can be as effective and as positive as I can, moving forward.

I mean, that's the mindset I would try to enter these situations in. The better we are at doing that from the get-go, from the very first contact, setting that right impression, I think the better, more effective you'll be honestly as a lawyer, because we have a very, very good relationship established at the outset. Again, this, if I enter into a good relationship with you, my impression with you is positive from the get-go, we really get to a point where it's much easier for me to trust you. It's much easier for me to share things. I see this as honestly long-term, even risk reduction, because you're going to have a client, I think in most situations, you're going to establish a relationship with a client that will be a positive one, even if negative things happen.

If the outcome isn't necessarily what I expect, but if the relationship is positive, I don't walk away from that going "Well, man, I didn't see that coming. This guy's a complete idiot." No. Things happen, and I can hear and understand, well, sometimes a jury sees it a little bit differently. I don't know how these things play, but you get the point. So, okay. I've rambled on here long enough. I hope you found something of value with these little stories and a few thoughts on first impressions, and I look forward to visiting with you next time here on ALPS in Brief. Hey, that's it. Have a good one, folks. Bye, bye.

ALPS In Brief – Episode 62: When Life Winks

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager with Alps and welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Though, as some of you may know that listen to some of my podcasts or hear some of my, or read some of my writing, I no longer live in Montana, let alone Missoula. This past year, well officially it hadn't even been a year. So in short, I live now in St. Cloud Florida, and obviously still with Alps and hope to be for a number of years yet, but it's been an interesting experience. This whole move down, oh boy, from when we sold our house to, when we finally moved into the home that we were building. It had three different addresses and just crazy, crazy stuff.

 

Well, I'm going to do something a little different with this podcast, and this kind of Florida story is relevant in an odd way. I have done two other podcasts called listening to your life and they sort of dealt with a lot of writing that I do or was doing in Montana. Hope to get back into that in a more significant way here. The location of our home is such that there's not easy access to trails, although I'm doing a lot of indoor riding and getting the bike legs back.

 

But, I want to talk a little bit about listening to your life and experiencing life and just, it's a different topic. I'm not going to tie much of this into law. I'm not going to go into a lot of risk management and ethics and all that. I just want to share some stories, some things that have happened. Maybe, there's something to learn from it for you. Maybe, I don't know where this goes. But, I want to share. As I was saying, the move to Florida was the right decision and a good decision, but boy, it was not without its headaches.

 

Multiple addresses, a period of time just staying in a VRBO sort of at the last minute because of construction delays in this development here. And, oh, it just got crazy and it was not, based on that experience, I would never do an Airbnb or VRBO again, ever in my life. I, just was one of the worst experiences my wife and I've ever had. Just, ugh, I won't even bore you with all of that. But, it's busy. It's stressful to sell a house during a pandemic, to buy a house or to build a house during a pandemic, to make a move during a pandemic. You know, all of this is just very, very stressful. And then trying to get set up, and just moving in and unpacking and packing. It's been a high stress year. Some stress was very, very good, but, just because it's good stress doesn't mean it doesn't take a toll.

 

Another stress is kind of, kind of crazy. Well, one of the things, as we were sort of moving through this year, my wife and I are Disney Vacation Club members that have been Disney people for many, many years. Our kids have grown up Disney and had wonderful time and they have very, very good memories of it. All of us have with Disney. We've literally been over much of the world with Disney, but we decided to, just a few weeks ago, take a Disney cruise.

 

Particularly since we're down here, I don't have to fly all day to get on a cruise ship. It literally is like a 45 minute drive, which we're still getting used to. But, we wanted to take a cruise and just kind of relax. And this was to be with our best friends that we've traveled with for many years and just really, really good folk and enjoy their company immensely.

 

As we were getting closer to cruise time. So, it's, maybe two, two and a half months out, one of our best friends developed a health problem that at the time was concerning and really just unsure where this would go. But, you just, prayers and there's not a lot you can do to make, heart issues, you know, you can't, that's got to be dealt with. To make a longer story short, the issues that she was dealing with got progressively worse and really got to the point that our friends were unable to join us on the cruise for obviously very, very legitimate reasons.

 

And needed some medical attention that was supposed to be several months down the road. But due to some just happenstance kinds of things, and also just calling the surgeon, the doctors, the main doc here every day, just to see if there's cancellation things she managed to get in quite sooner. Which turned out to be a very, very real blessing to her. And in fact, here in just a few short days is going to have open heart surgery to have a valve repaired and to take care of some other issues. It's a scary time. It's you do all that you can to be supportive. Although we don't live near each other we, again, we vacation together, but they're more than a few states away. But you just do what you can to be supportive.

 

You also struggle a bit because we're all similar ages. You know, none of us are in our twenties anymore. We're all in our sixties and of the four I'm the youngest at 62. So, you start to worry about us, my wife and what's going to lie ahead for us. You try to take care of yourself and all this. Well, so that's sort of a background now to this cruise and you know, where there's this debate, do we go, do we not go?

 

And we struggled with that a little bit. And I honestly felt we need to go. And our friends were very concerned that we wouldn't, really wanted us to go. Just please enjoy it, enjoy it for all of us, that kind of a thing. And so we ended up going and you can't get on, I understand right now, we're seeing, oh, a cruise? You know, this was just two weeks. Well, in fact, no, we just got off the cruise last weekend. So it's not all that far back, and never seeing the CDC, you shouldn't be on cruises right now and all, okay. It's just so much stuff, but we really felt we needed to go and wanted to go. But you have to, the day that you get on you have to pass a test that can show you don't have COVID, you have to mask up on the ship unless you're in your room or up on deck and that kind of thing.

 

And you're just very nervous because all the time and money and it just, oh, do you pass these tests? And it turned out, quite a number of people, either to weather related events or positive tests, ended up not getting on the ship. I mean, it was pretty significant and Disney doesn't fill these ships up. Some of the other carriers have canceled ships, they were really filling them up, Disney just thankfully hasn't done that. So, they were able to sail and we ended up having a very interesting experience, which is what I want to share a little bit about what happened. So we managed to get on, felt great about that. You kind of settle in and right out of the bat, the very first day, so we haven't even left port yet, you kind of hang out in the ship till everybody boards, you have a nice evening, but a lot of the tech didn't work and there were all kinds of problems.

 

So on the onboard tech, just getting all the information you need, because it's all, there's no more paper anymore. Here's your tickets for your meals or here's, it's all on the mobile app and for some crazy reason that wasn't working. So all of us are trying to figure out what's up and it just, you're off to this start this like, okay, okay. And we sail out, beautiful evening, sailing out. And captain comes on and says, well, overnight the wind's going to pick up, next day we're going to get into some high seas and we're going to sail for two days. Well, we did sail for two days out, we were going out to the British Virgin islands.

 

And so, two days at sea and boy, some really high seas, a lot of wind, a lot of rocking. Even the staff, and these people are always on the ocean, are stumbling around trying to serve dinner, or just walk down, taking care of whatever they were doing, cleaning rooms and on and on. And everybody started talking about, the captain had a little too much tequila maybe, and just kind of trying to make light of it, but it was a rough sail. You know, now both my wife and I we've sailed a number of times over the years and I wouldn't say we have our sea legs, but neither of us were seasick or anything like that. But I would be lying, we didn't see it's not a little uncomfortable. You just don't feel quite right.

 

So that was kind of, wow, but it's an experience. And a lot of people were responding that experience like, oh, geez, this is no fun, this isn't going to... Complain, complain, complain. And you know, if you've heard some of my other podcasts, I'm not a complainer. It doesn't get you anywhere. You know, it's not like Disney controls mother nature and can just wave a little magic wand or throw some pixie dust and calm those seas. It is what it is. If you sail in the Caribbean in the middle of winter, this is not unexpected.

 

So, some other things that happened, after we got to Tortola, and there was some time to enjoy. We actually went over to the Baths on Virgin Gorda. That's just a very interesting, unique rock formation. Just awesome. Then we were to sail to St. Thomas. Well, on the way to St. Thomas, getting crazy seas, couldn't go into St. Thomas, partly because the COVID numbers in St. Thomas were too high and the Disney organization said we don't want to risk that with all of you, so, we're going to skip St Thomas and go straight to the Disney, private island, a place called Castaway. And again, some strong winds, but we get there and heck, got there overnight. We stay on the ship, but it was an interesting experience just to have this night on a private island, out in the middle of nowhere.

 

Well, that was actually in the Bahamas, but, it's a very, just an interesting experience. Again, lot of wind, lot of wind, they said actually had we gotten to Castaway Key, which is Disney's private island when we were supposed to, we wouldn't have been able to dock the wind was just too strong. So again, temperatures are cool, all of the, if you will, excursions that were to occur for everybody, us included on, guess we had to be canceled due to high winds and high seas. And course you're not out there lying on an 80 degree beach and enjoying the sun, having a Mai Tai or something, that's not what this experience was.

 

So again, kind of crazy. Now making matters worse, our first night we got into Castaway about a half a day before we were supposed to and so that evening, you could get out and spend a little time on the island, we went to dinner. And my wife had a gift that our best friend who was dealing with these heart issues had given her a number of years ago, and she thought she left it at the restaurant for dinner. And, we walked out we thought, get it the next night. Go back to dinner the next night, as an aside, and the sweater wasn't there. They'd never seen, so this sweater's gone. We are also on the island the next day, trying to enjoy it a little bit, the Disney private island. And, you go out with your ship and I take my cell phone, you have your driver's license, both of our driver's license in it, and, what they call these little cards, key cards, that they sort of get you on and off the ship. It's sort of the ship ID. And I lost my phone and both our driver's license and my documentation to get back on the ship and my glasses and all this stuff.

 

So I will share, are you getting the gist of what this trip was like? Lots of winds, strongs, this is not what you expect, you lose your driver's license, you lose a very expensive smartphone, some very good pair of glasses, a special sweater, on and on and on. And it's very tempting to sit here and say, man, this was a crazy bad trip. We shouldn't have gone, and all of that. Now I intentionally told you sort of the crazy stuff. Now I want to back up and tell you another side to this story.

 

When we got to Tortola earlier in this trip, you pull in, was beautiful, beautiful morning. Finally, we're in a little bit of calm sea, because partly you're just in the islands and you pull in a little, port area and immediately we're ready.

 

You get off, we're going to go on this excursion, get on another little boat and go over to the Virgin Gorda and see the Baths. And that really was a cool experience. But as soon as we step off the ship, it starts raining and it's just like, you got to be kidding me. And we were talking to a younger couple behind us who had a few children and they're very, very fun, pleasant family. And I looked up and there's a, right over the heart of downtown, you could not have done this more perfectly, there's a beautiful double rainbow. And the guy behind us, we're kind of putting this like, your kids can look at this, and truly an extraordinary moment. My wife would say, we should take a picture. I said, Nope, this is one there's not even enough time. You're never going to catch it, enjoy the moment. The guy behind says, how does Disney do it? It just was an incredible, incredible moment.

 

So then we went on and, stopped raining, by the time we got over to Virgin Gorda and we had, I had a nice time come back and get back on the ship and get back out in the heavy seas. And so, but there was that. So, the next day we're to go to, again, St. Thomas and they said, not going in, so we're just going to keep sailing and we're going to stay in some rough seas, but we'll have this day and hopefully we'll be able to get into Castaway, the Disney island. Rain, blowing wind, and I mean, some serious wind, all us throughout most of the trip, really crazy wind. My wife and I get up and we're up, sort of the front of the ship. And there's not a lot of people up there because it's cold, it's windy and people are trying to enjoy themselves at quieter parts of the ship.

 

Incredible rainbows, doubles and you could actually see the light coming toward us, almost touching the ship. I mean, it just looked, and you could see through and see the water and then it would go way back out and you could see through and see the horizon. I've never had an experience like that before, just seeing these rainbows. And it just, again, we've actually tried, you can't, to even try to take a photo of that would destroy it. You're never going to capture it. And this is a moment you just appreciate what's there.

 

So let me tell you, about the phone and the driver's license. I got to tell you, I tried to handle that pretty well. You know, I'm not one that just gets crazy and angry and frustrated. You do what you can do to try to find it, we couldn't find it. And thankfully in spite of not having my pass, if you will, to get back on the ship, we did have Cathy's and they can pull us up and basically we had to pull up some photos and verify it's us and all that. And we explained what happened and yeah.

 

So, I'm back on the ship anyway, I'm thinking, okay, so you go up and you just report this and maybe somebody will find it. Maybe, they won't. So, we report it and you go to dinner and we're also hoping to find Cathy's sweater that we thought we had left at dinner the night before, wasn't there, never saw it. So we're both, not feeling too happy about all this. And it's just, you enjoy your meal as much as you can. And afterwards we go down to guest services and it turns out somebody had turned in my phone, glasses, driver's license, everything's there.

 

And you know, I tell you that feels good. And we decided, well, let's just walk around. Now this entire day it had been raining off and on, lot of wind, et cetera. And we're up on the top of the ship, it's still drizzling, some good wind, but you know, this is the crazy things my wife and I do, get out and walk around and just try to get a little fresh air. And I walk by a nice sort of wooden thing on this ship, it's where they collect the garbage and things, and it has a top to it and there's this... And the light was very funky, just yellow lights and things. And there's just what appears to be white, something hanging over this thing. And I looked at that and I said, ah, what is this?

 

And I'm just, I truly was just curious about it. And my wife, and I sort of pick it up and I'm like, what is this? And she just goes, oh my God, that's my sweater. And it was dry, but it was sitting outside. You know, whether somebody just put it there, or we think, probably she sat it down the night before because we were watching some fireworks on the ship. And, but again, it couldn't have sat out all day, first off, the wind, it never would, night and day, it wouldn't have stayed there, and it rained heavily most of the night and off and on throughout the day. So, what happened to this sweater? And there it is in perfect condition, ever so slightly damp. Because it was just sitting, I don't know how long, and you sit and say, this is just crazy. This is just crazy.

 

So what is my point to all of this? Well, we could choose to focus on all that was going wrong. All that wasn't picture perfect. Or we could choose to roll with the sea, roll with the punches and just make the best of it. I can replace a sweater, I don't like the hassle, but I could replace our driver's license and a phone's just a phone.

 

I'm not going in to have my heart valve repaired, in a couple of days. Life's pretty good. So, we came back from this cruise and shared some of the stories, the good, the bad, and some other things I haven't even shared, it just was a wild time. And our friend that is going into surgery just got such a kick out of hearing about this. It brought her such joy and such pleasure. And she says, you know what happened to you two? And I said, well, I don't know what? She says, you experienced several God winks. And I love that language, that struck a chord with me. It kind of helped put all this in perspective, you know, and this isn't about, being deeply religious or anything you could just as easily say life has winked. And it's just a way to focus, to draw the focus of the experience, to the right thing.

 

My wife and I will forever remember what it felt like to see these two extraordinary rainbow events. And I've seen rainbows off and on my whole life, I'll tell you, I've seen some really awesome things. These two, nothing like it. It was just, you just have to stop and catch your breath for a minute. It's a God wink. It's a life wink. So, that's kind of my story, the takeaway and I think the reason I wanted to share all this is things happen in life. Some things are small, like losing a phone with some driver's license, and some things are big, life changing, like having to go in and have your heart, your chest opened up and a valve, hopefully repaired. And you know, this is, wow.

 

So, I try to keep perspective. And I think when things happen, we need to think about how significant is this and what does it really mean? And, life's too short, life's too precious. So I want to say to all of you, first off when bad things or stressful things and crazy things and unexpected things happen, try to keep it in perspective and understand life's short, but also look for the God winks. I truly believe more and more, and just the older I get that they're there. We just got to look for them. We need to listen to our life. And maybe that's a way to keep having the energy to move forward, to keep taking the next step. Maybe it's also a way to appreciate what we have, what we're blessed with, but also, I encourage you to say, even though, hey it's been a long, crazy year and all sorts of things, and there's all kinds of reasons not to take a trip, not to prioritize yourself, not to have a little time with a support system that is so important in your life.

 

So, I'm referring obviously to my wife in my situation, even in the middle of winter, when it can be crazy, it's really worth, wow, prioritizing yourself and taking a little time to seek nourishment, to do something to take this break from work and all these other routines. Yeah. It may be crazy. Yeah. I don't know what happens, but I'm open to the experience. And again, just, I can't tell you how important this is to me.

 

This was such a major event in terms of, and I just loved her language, it's a God wink. Looking for those, and recognizing the real value. So, that's my story. It's a different situation you're in and there's nothing risk management here other than, you, again, prioritizing taking care of yourself. That's always an issue and a topic for me, but I hope you found something of value with this tale of mine. And I hope maybe it might enable you at times to be more open, to looking for those winks now and again, and that that may be meaningful for you as well. So, that's it. Thanks for listening. Have a good one all.

ALPS In Brief – Episode 61: A Dirty Little Secret About Conflict Resolution Claims

ALPS Risk Manager Mark Bassingthwaighte shares the illuminating story of a law firm, their longstanding wealthy client who couldn’t close the deal on a massive project that would have netted the law firm millions in billables, and the unfortunate circumstances that followed when the firm moved the project forward with a different client to secure the payout.

Transcript:

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte and welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. I have had a couple of calls of late and they are not out of the ordinary in terms of the topics that are being discussed but it got me to thinking. And I wanted to share a claim story that goes back quite a few years but it's one of my favorite stories for a number of reasons. A lot of the calls that I take have to do with conflicts of interest and just exploring. Sometimes it's not clear who the client is and you work through that and you can figure out the conflict issue and resolve some things. Sometimes it's just a lawyer looking at a matter wanting to stay in or wondering if he or she can even take a case.

So it's fun and at times just crazy in terms of how complex certain situations can get trying to work through all the issues. But I wanted to share a conflict story again because I've had a number of calls. And of late, the issue really has been, what rule are we in? Is it a current client matter in terms of 1.7 or is it a past client situation rule 1.9? And it's interesting because 1.7 is a bit more restrictive. And 1.9, if we can get there is a little more permissive in terms of allowing attorneys some additional options in terms of whether they can stay in or can take a new matter on, that kind of thing.

So let me get to my story. There's just some interesting learnings out of it. The gist of it is there's a larger firm that had a senior partner, I would call this individual rainmaker, and had a very good long-standing client. And this client was a developer. And this developer had an option on a significant amount of land. And the firm wanted to help this individual close the deal. And if they managed to have the client get all this land, the firm stands to make a great deal of money in terms of billables over the years as this project would evolve and be developed. And we are talking about real money here. I mean, it's way into the seven digits.

So what happened is the client was unable to get sufficient funds together to exercise his option and he lost out. This wasn't the first deal to go south and probably won't be the last. And regardless, this individual is an individual of real wealth. The firm, however, looking at how much money could be made if they get involved in this project, didn't want to walk away. Another partner at the firm had another client who was also an individual of means and was very interested in this project and was able to put the deal together and the firm got involved in terms of all the follow-up work and everybody's happy, right? Well, not so much. It turns out the project as it went forward with the second client was successful. There was a lot of news coverage, the individual was just getting some attention and whatnot and the original client that lost that on the deal, I guess, got a little put out about all that "just likes, it should have been me" kind of a thing.

So he ended up suing for malpractice based on a conflict of interest. And suffice it to say, at the end of the day, there was a substantial loss paid out. And one little side comment here, a dirty little secret with conflict claims, a law firm or an attorney can't benefit financially from something they should never have been involved in the first place. So discouragement of fees was also on the table and I assure you that the firm in the situation paid some real money to get out of this claim and finally have it resolved.

So that's sort of the down and dirty of this claim. But I want to talk about some learnings with it, some interesting things. The first thing I want to talk about is this difference, are we in rule 1.7 or 1.9? Arguably, had this individual, the first developer that lost out on April exercise the option, had this individual been a past client, this may have turned out a little bit differently.

Well, what happened? Why didn't it play this way? Well, first off, the law firm looking at all this as they wanted to analyze, do a little conflict resolution, if you will, look at this setting and say, well, what's interesting? We have a bright line. This client was unable to perform on the option and so our involvement here is done. That bright line transitioned this individual from a present client to past client. Now we have all kinds of bright lines here in the practice of law. The deeds had been delivered, the judge signed the final order, the proceeds had been dispersed, the settlement check has been sent out, whatever. There are all kinds of bright lines here. And then the other thing that they started to think through was to say, well, we have some passage of time.

In their case, it was a few weeks. And that passage of time also transitioned someone from a present client to a past client. And that was the rationalization. Well, read the rule in your jurisdiction or the two rules in your jurisdiction. I've looked at them in every state and even the model rules, and I've never come across any language that says, a bright line or the passage of time is somehow determinative on this issue. It really isn't. I've not come across any ethics opinions that say this. So what does... Well, before I get to what gets us there, I want to talk about this passage of time just a little bit more in-depth too because lawyers will say, okay, in this story, it was a couple of weeks we all agree that was a bad call.

Well, and sometimes, again, money drives ethics. Remember there's a lot of money on the table and you want to find a way to not walk away from that. But you'll hear other lawyers say, well, but maybe two years, something like that. What is it? You now say two weeks, two months, two years, five years, 10 years. And there really isn't an answer to this. I can share over the years in my work here at ALPS, I've come across some cases around the country where judges have even said, I don't know how long it is, but 15 years isn't long enough. And it's just like, okay, you got to take note of that.

So the passage of time and these bright lines are not determinative. What is determinative? And it's interesting. If you talk to juries on the issue, what you hear is, look lawyers, all that you do in terms of your business model, your marketing is to encourage your clients to look at you as, you're my lawyer, this is my firm, that kind of thing speaking as a client. You want clients to say, we are your clients. Now that's good business. Hey, there's nothing wrong with that. But they'll also say, because that's the reality, the way you do this, encourage everybody to think, we're your lawyer, we're your firm. Unless and until you document otherwise, these individuals are going to be current clients.

So think about that. If we don't document, if we don't have... Well, what is the document that gets you there? Obviously a letter of closure. This concludes our representation of you in this matter, that kind of thing. If we don't have that kind of documentation, I strongly encourage you as you do conflict resolution over the years on this particular issue, that if you don't have a closure letter, I encourage you to always say, these individuals or clients are perhaps inactive but they are current clients regardless of the passage of time or the bright lines that have transpired, okay? If we don't have a closure letter clear on its face, this concludes our representation, inactive current client.

I will also tell you that savvy firms in terms of what they do with their conflicts systems, best practices, even after seven years, if a firm may have a far retention policy of seven years, they start shredding things in accordance with the policy and that's fine but they don't destroy the closure letter. And I'll typically maybe a digital copy or something like that, but that's part of the conflict database. It helps us document, is this a current or a past client? Well, it helps us document it's a past client. So the continuous use by all in a form of letter closure can be very, very beneficial on this topic. So I want to underscore bright lines; nope, passage of time; nope, documentation is key and a must.

But there's another really interesting issue here. There is a side learning that I'd also like to toss out. I shared initially that the rainmaker and this first client that lost out on the option have been working together for many, many years. And I want to toss this side learning out because a lot of lawyers do have, whether it's family, friends, long-term business relationships, but we really develop good relationships with some of our clients. And there is a thinking that just comes into play at times that says, I don't want to be offensive, I don't need to document my files as thoroughly, think closure letters then absence of that, because it's off-putting. I don't want to say goodbye, get out of here. And really these are good people. I have real faith and trust in the relationship in other words. And based on that faith and trust, these folks just aren't going to Sue. We go way back and I don't want to offend. But I got to tell you that's not accurate.

We need to think about faith and trust in these relationships and what that means from the other side. In this situation, the client basically came to the lawyer in the firm and said, look, I've been harmed here to the tune of several million dollars, it's a lost profit calculation. And I know, again, said this way, but this is what's driving it based on the faith and trust in this business and personal relationship we've developed over the years, I know you would not want me to suffer any harm as a result of your misstep. Would you help bring the claim against yourself and the firm so that I can recover? And would you and your wife like to join us this weekend for dinner? We're going to take the boat out.

Now, in this situation, actually, I spent about a week with this firm after all this resolved looking and talking about the issues and doing some other education and consulting with them. But literally that conversation occurred and the boat, taking the boat out, we're not talking about some small, we're talking about something that's like 65-foot yard or so. I mean, it's a big, big boat. There's a lot of money here. But can you appreciate how in this relationship, faith, and trust really means something different depending on which side of the relationship attorney or client you're in? So I encourage you also not to minimize this. People that we have as lawyers, great faith and trust in in terms of the attorney-client relationship, this is a population that really is pretty litigious. Every carrier has many, many claims over the years that arise out of these relationships, but still some things go wrong.

So a key takeaway here in this situation too is really just to look and say, Hey, I understand that sending a closure letter out or something may not... I don't want to offend but it doesn't have to be a goodbye kiss-off type letter. You've been honored consistently over the years by this person or this company or this family continuing to bring work and it's a real privilege, honor them back and simply say, thank you and write your audience. You need to phrase it and put it in the language it's typically you and how you would interact with whoever it is, but this concludes my representation. I hope you found my work to be exemplary. It's always a pleasure. I look forward to working with you on the Jones matter or whenever something new arises. Say hello to your lovely wife and I'll see you at rotary.

But write your audience, but you really do need that documentation, that closure letter. In this situation, had we had a closure letter, that really could have made a very, very significant difference because we would've been in the 1.9 role. Now yes, if you do this analysis on 1.9, we would need to have a consent to our moving forward or this firm should have had consent to move forward and that's a different topic. But if you think about just the learnings of this fact pattern, I hope you begin to appreciate the importance of documentation and the difference in terms of how we walk through the difference between 1.7 and 1.9.

So that's my quick little rundown on a conflict issue that's been topic that we've been chatting about with a number of lawyers in recent months here. I hope you found it worthwhile and interesting. I have a little learning here and so it's been a pleasure. I appreciate your listening. Look forward to being able to share another story, another call at some point down the road. So, Hey, thanks for listening. Stay well all. Bye, bye.

 

ALPS In Brief – Episode 60: The New Normal? Don’t Get Too Comfy…

As we transition to more permanent work-from-home schedules, the lack of supervision and a diminished sense of community could have bigger consequences. In our latest episode, Mark explores a few risky scenarios that have played out recently while lawyers work from home. He also explores some easy-to-implement solutions to keep you and your coworkers happy and connected, even from afar.

Transcript: 

Hello. I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS. Welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence Building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Today, I want to talk just a little bit about the new normal and ethics and the pandemic. Early in the pandemic, I penned an article, which is available on our blog, if you care to take a look, on the new normal and really suggesting there is no such thing as the new normal and just trying to encourage people to think about the consequences of change. The new normal is really just a period of time where change was very, very quick and widespread for so many people.

But why do I keep harping on this? Honestly, I'd say I really have some concerns about this term, "the new normal." It seems sometimes you'll read this in the news and people will just talk about, it seems like there's an effort to have everyone except that all this change is permanent and we should just get used to it and life is going to be like this from here on out. Now, there's certainly a lot of truth to that in some ways, but my concern is it feels to me at times a lot of us are just trying to get comfortable with all the change and just keep moving and not really think through, "Well, what are the ramifications of this change?" and so I want to explore that in the context of our ethical rules, because please understand, in no jurisdiction is there, if you will, the pandemic exception to any of these rules.

Just to set this up, for example, well, many of us, I should say, when we had to run home, I've been working remote for many, many years, but moving home very suddenly and having staff and everybody go offsite and we are trying to get the equipment home, get it set up, and stay as effective as possible, just to keep everything moving forward, now, that's all well and good. If we had to set up a laptop and a monitor or something on a coffee table in the living room, yeah, no problem. If however, that's still the case, now what is it, 18, 20 months, whatever we're into this pandemic, if the laptop and the screen is still there and the kids can come home from school or working after school, if they're homeschooling or something and gaming on the TV right next to you and a spouse is in the kitchen and can hear all that's going on, that's no longer acceptable. A couple of days to make a transition is one thing, but confidentiality is in play, is it not? I don't want us to get comfortable just for the sake of finding comfort. We really need to take some time and think through the rules.

Let me share some thoughts. One of the concerns that I have, and I think we should all be thinking about, is supervision, particularly in the context of wellness. I'm going to come at this in two ways, but prior to the pandemic, everybody, the study that came out in 2016, we all learned as a profession, our profession still has some very serious problems in terms of wellness. Well, then the pandemic hits, and things just haven't gotten any better, put it that way. It's not unique to our profession, but mental health issues have become far more of a concern. Alcoholism has gone up, chemical dependency has gone up. These are very real concerns.

If people are working from home and not as connected as they used to be when everyone was in the office, that's a potential problem. Are you addressing supervision issues? Is this a legitimate concern from a claim standpoint? Oh, absolutely, it is. We see claims for lack of supervision and they are not uncommon. One that immediately comes to mind is a more senior lawyer was several states away working remote, obviously, and he was just doing his thing. He had his files and everybody had their own silos and were taking care of their own matters. Well, no one was paying attention to this gentleman and he was just slipping into dementia and it was getting worse and worse, and eventually, eight critical deadlines were blown on eight different matters. Now, there are eight very viable, good claims. These aren't minor missteps. Remember, we are our partners' keepers, right? When it comes to malpractice, in particular, we sink or swim together as a firm.

One of the things that really made a difference to me, and I've talked about this before in other podcasts or articles, but ALPS deployed Teams right after we had to all go home for the pandemic, the early stages of that. I can't tell you how significant that one product became and will remain, even now. Perhaps we're a little bit more of a hybrid model now, which is not going to be uncommon for many, many businesses, too, but it's a tool that we can use to replace the water cooler conversation, sitting down and having some coffee in the break room. We can just have a video call real quick. Sometimes it's just a chat, sometimes it's to ask a question, troubleshoot an issue, but it facilitates connectivity between all of us. It helps us maintain our culture. There are also meetings where we can get together and check up on each other: "Mark, what's your schedule look like this week? Alison, what's your schedule look like this week? Where are we all at? What support do you need?"

It's just one example. There are all kinds of tools here. I'm not saying go out and use Teams. I'm trying to share that wellness and follow-through, we can even talk about competency, which I will in a little bit here in a different context, but it's just we need to not get comfortable just with everybody being apart, we need to say, "Okay, how can we continue to maintain the culture of the firm? How can we check up on each other? How can we support each other so that we all stay on track?" Matters can go off the rails very quickly if someone is depressed or drinking more alcohol than they should and start drinking during the day, as an example. How do you think mistakes have happened? Okay, so I really do believe this is a very important issue.

Let's also talk a little bit about confidentiality. I shared this concern with still having tech in a space that is not dedicated to a home office in any work from home remote environment. We cannot allow kids to be on the same network we're working. You can set up your own network and then have a family network. We wall this off. We cannot be in an area where spouses, kids, friends' kids coming over can hear calls. It's not okay to go sit down in a crowded Starbucks, even just to get out of the house and take a lot of calls. Confidentiality is in play. There is no work-from-home exception.

At this point, I mean, I'll just speak personally here, but if I were in practice and had any say in terms of it's my firm, or I'm managing a firm or something along those lines, at this point, any employee, attorney, or staff that cannot have space that is truly dedicated to privacy in a work-from-home space, a separate room, doors that you can close, that kind of thing, the privilege to remain working at home isn't going to be granted. This, I sort of look at it, it's the work-from-home model, the hybrid model can still be in play. I think it's a great thing. I really do. I'm a fan of it, but we need to have a professional office at home, a true office. I believe that for all kinds of reasons. Anyway, enough of that.

I will share, and some of you that read and follow me at times, my wife and I have are in the process of transitioning to Florida from Montana. We've been down here now about, oh, two months or so. It's just been some supply chain delays and whatnot on the home we're building here, but I will tell you, I absolutely would not even consider this, and I would have expected ALPS to not even say, "Hey, relocate," if I couldn't promise them and have to follow through on, obviously, building a dedicated home office. I really do. It's a soundproof space. It's high-speed internet. It is dedicated. It's going to be my ALPSs home office. I share that to say, I guess, I'm walking the talk. I really take this very, very seriously.

Let's talk a little bit about competency as well. Initially, we can talk about wellness. There is that piece. We need to stay competent and make sure everybody is maintaining health in exercise, eating right, doing whatever they need to do to kind of take care of themselves. Doubly important, again, in a global pandemic, but it really is something we shouldn't minimize. But please understand competency, again, there's no exception to rule here, right? While you or maybe several others in your firm may be very competent working from home, is everyone competent in working from home? What I mean by that is often there are different tools now in play. We may have switched to cloud computing, email, all kinds of things are changing a bit. We may be using personal equipment, whether it's cell phones, laptops doesn't matter. But if our processes start to change, is everybody competent? Excuse me.

Remember that, I believe it was a Texas lawyer sometime ago with, and even the meme went around for a while, "I am not a cat." He just clearly wasn't fully competent at the time on video conferencing. He since learned, as my understanding is, figured it out. We need to think, is everybody competent or is everybody able to competently perform their tasks, their assignments, whatever they need to do from a home-work setting, whether it's video conferencing, e-filing, cloud computing, cloud collaboration, email, encryption, which really should be in play? Do they know how to redact documents? Can they use the case management accounting? Whatever systems we're using, can they competently use it from the remote location? Something to think about.

But I want to take that even further, this whole notion of competency, and bring this into the cybersecurity space as well. Again, we are as lawyers to understand the benefits and risks of the relevant technology we're using, right? Well, things change when we go home and it changes in a lot of ways. I will tell you this whole transition here in the States, I'm just going to talk about the States for a moment, has been the gift that keeps on giving to the cybercriminal space because of the work from home for all kinds of reasons.

One, just as an example, people generally tend to follow the rules and be fairly responsible when they're using technology in the workplace. They know their rules, they know they should question email and not click on links and these kinds of things. They're pretty good at that. Take everybody home and it changes entirely. We just let our guard down, so naturally, and it's just, "Hey, this is my home. I don't have to worry about strong passwords on my stuff. I don't need to change and have different passwords for everything. Password manager? Yeah, I don't think so. This is my home, this is my life, and this is my tech." Now, even though they're using it for work, doesn't change anything. But no exceptions here, right? That's just one example.

Home routers, I've had other articles and talked about this before, are a very real concern. They need to be properly set up. Again, what kinds of things am I thinking about? The rules shouldn't change just because anybody's working from home. Strong passwords should be in play. Two-factor authentication, password managers should be in play. VPNs need to be in use a hundred percent of the time regardless of where we are, if we are remote or even just out for the day in terms of mobile work because we're at the courthouse or whatever it might be, we're on a vacation, but periodically catching up with some email and some work. VPNs need to be there. Again, does everybody know how to securely teleconference? Are they keeping their systems patched? I mean, all of the things that I've been talking and writing about, and many others as well, in terms of cybersecurity have to be in play and implemented at home. Period. If that's not possible, I go back to saying again, "If it were me in control, the privilege to work from home cannot be extended."

It's one thing that go home under these orders and make some things happen and get through the few weeks or few months, it varied for some of us, and you do the best you can. But now, this is becoming more permanent, so let's not get comfortable with, "It's okay." We need, again, tech competency, professional competency. There's no tolerance, no exception. There's no tolerance for legal-like, no exception for competency because of a global pandemic.

Now, please understand, I am not saying that every single person, whether their lawyer or staff have to be experts in terms of tech competency, but we have to know. Our responsibility as lawyers is to assure that everybody abides by the rules, complaint of 5.1, 5.3, but we need to know there are issues out here, and then we need to go find the people that can help us. We hire the competent talent we need, whether that's temporary in terms of a consultant to come in and set some things up, or a full-time IT staff, but we need to find the competent people that can help us to make sure we are competent from all these different settings now.

The final piece that I'd like to talk about is really thinking about policies and procedures. A concern that I have is that particularly in the solo small firm space, often we create procedures and have policies of how calendaring might be done and how conflicts need to be checked and all of that based on the work environment that we're all in, and they can be very, very effective. Have you thought about, "Are they still as effective in a work-from-home setting, a hybrid setting?"

'Kay, as an example, let's say there four or five of us lawyers practicing together and we have a few staff and we designed a system of calendaring that allows for entries to be double-checked, a second set of eyes, et cetera, because we want a process that makes sure... Well, it seeks to find the occasional misstep that will happen: The date doesn't get entered correctly, somebody didn't glean a date off a document, that kind of thing. We want to try to create a calendar that is very, very accurate. I call this an independent yet redundant calendaring process. It worked very well in the office because we hand documents over, whatever it might be, but in the home, everybody's separated.

Now, how do we know that people are still doing double-checking all the work? How does it get around the documents? You see where I'm going? How about mail? Is mail being distributed and we're getting it? The systems change by their very nature that people are now spread out. I encourage you to think about, "Are our file documentation procedures still capturing everything that we need? Is everybody consistent?" A temptation might be to say, "Oh, yes." Well, how do you know? Have you checked up? What is your quality control process to make sure? You might create the opportunity for me.

Say I'm a paralegal or something now. I can put everything digitally in files, et cetera, but are you checking to make sure I am? How do you know I'm not sitting at home having a glass of scotch with lunch and maybe two or three more in the afternoon, and I'm still working, I'm still productive, may get a little sloppy at times, but the systems and processes? Heck, I'm keeping everything on my hard drive here. Oh, by the way, I don't have it password protected, the kids are gaming on the same network. I'm going to be low-hanging fruit for a cyber vent of some sort is what I'm trying to drive that to. Are everyone in compliance with the expectations of file documentation? Are we still creating independent yet? Redundant calendars is our conflicts check as thorough? Are we following through on all these things?

The answer to that may be yes. If so, that's awesome. I'm just trying to underscore, please, the importance of not running with assumptions and thinking through this. It's too easy to just get comfortable. In some ways, when staff and lawyers and even problems are out of sight, they're out of mind, and they're out of sight because we're all spread out. Again, there's so many things we could talk about here and explore. I don't think getting into all this kind of detail is absolutely necessary and perhaps even beneficial at this point. I'm hopeful that you are able to hear me and you've gotten the point.

I'm going to wrap it with that and just say, hey, I want all of us to be comfortable going forward, regardless of how this pandemic ends, if it ends. Who knows? I think COVID in my mind is here to stay. We're going to have to learn to live with it just like we did with the flu, and that's okay, but let's take the time to make sure and confirm everyone in our firm is responsibly comfortable so that we know we have done all we can do to assure everyone is in compliance with the ethical rules. As I see it, this is just another way to ensure success in our legal endeavors. That's it for me, folks. I hope you found something of value in all of this and I look forward to visiting with you next time on ALPS In Brief. Have a good one. Bye-bye.

ALPS In Brief – Episode 59: When Things Go Off the Rails

Mark shares some stories of cancelled flights, employment emergencies, and more, to illustrate a timely point: When things go off the rails, being rude will get you nowhere. Instead of yelling and screaming in situations you can’t control, treat people with compassion, humanity, and respect, and see solutions present themselves.  

Transcript:

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager with ALPS. And welcome to the latest episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Today, I'm going to do another solo. And for those of you that listen to me, or have attended the CLE's, and follow my writing over the years, you know that I, at times, I am a storyteller and I also am someone that just spends a lot of time in my head thinking. And I've been thinking a lot. What brought on the topic for today was among other things. My wife and I have recently become grandparents for the first time, and it's very exciting. We've just recently returned from a visit to meet him and just had a wonderful, wonderful time.

 

And you get the thinking, at least I do, about what do I want him to know? Well, what, what life lessons will I be able to teach? Or what insights can I share? And I just got to thinking about some things and that has led to today's topic. And really what I want to focus on is how to respond when things go off the rails. It's kind of a general topic, I guess, of all of this. And a lot of the learnings and things that I'd like to share, insights, have just come from life experiences. And again, as I opened, I like to tell some stories. So I have a number of stories that I want to share.

 

The first involves a professional experience because law is not my first career, if you will. Many, many, many years ago, in fact back in the eighties. And I was working in a welfare office in Seattle, and it's one of the largest ones at the time. Anyway, we gave out and I think more medical assistance in just about any place in the country. It was just a crazy busy place. At one point, I was involved training someone and literally the first day I started training with this other young fellow. I had a client come in and you go out to this sort of, this reception area is full of people, just chock full of large reception, private security, all over the place. And it was kind of a rough neighborhood and you would have this long row of interview rooms. So I go out to the microphone and call up the person that I was due to meet with. And we walk down a long row of interview rooms and sit down and started the discussion and the process of seeing how I might be able to help another young man get some assistance.

 

And as we progressed, this individual really got to be very confrontational and it got pretty crazy. And I'm just sitting here watching all of this. I don't engage in situations like this. And I don't know if that made him angry or not, but what happened immediately after I'm just kind of watching, he literally stands up, picks up this circular table that we were all sitting around, and the guy I was training also rose because he wasn't sure what to do, perhaps a little frightened. And this client pinned the gentlemen I was training in the corner of a room, and he's just threatening and screaming. And I'm just looking at him.

 

And my response was, "Look, this is a busy day for me. It's clear you're not wanting to work with me to get anything done. Tell you what, I got so much stuff to do. I'm going to go down the hall, go back to my desk and get to work on some other things. If, and when, you feel like you want to move forward here, you let him know out front and I'll get back to it." And I literally just got up and walked out.

 

Now, I could see the guy I was training was in a panic. Oh my God, what's going on? And trust me, I was not on my way back to my office to work. I was on my way down the hall to get security and some assistance. Turns out I didn't even need to go that far. You could hear a voice coming from the room, "Mr. B, Mr. B wait. Wait." He put the chair or the table down. I came back and he just said, "I need some help." And then we got to work and were able to take care of his needs.

 

That situation really stuck with me over the years for all kinds of reasons. But one of the things, it was an early lesson that has stuck with me ever since. And just underscores for me the value of not letting anyone else try to take control of my emotions and how I respond. I choose not to give someone that power. And that has really made a tremendous difference for me over the years. It was such a powerful experience. And I don't know why I did it in terms of just...I just wasn't going to, I don't know. It's hard to get my feathers ruffled perhaps at times, but I ended up... Don't get me wrong, I certainly can get angry, but I would choose, for the most part, when I get angry, because it's right for the circumstance. And I have every right to be angry but this wasn't it. So it just an interesting experience.

 

I had another situation come up a number of years later. Where my family and I, kids, wife, even mom, were all traveling to Walt Disney world in Florida during a hurricane season. It was one of those years where there were back-to-back hurricanes. I think they, over the entire season, they had five actually hit landfall in Florida. And we managed to fit a vacation and a cruise in between two of these storms. But on the way down there's a little bit of a delay because of, again, storms and the whole country in terms of the traffic grid, air traffic was just a mess. So we get in a day late and the luggage is nowhere near to be found. It may be a day or so, and it's just a mess.

 

But it's about midnight. Literally, we're standing in line to report the missing luggage along with everybody else and try to figure out what's up. And there was a gentleman in front of us. And he was married, had a teenage daughter. And they were to be... So it's midnight and the next day they were to be at Cape Canaveral to board a cruise ship and head out. And none of their luggage is here. And this guy is screaming, bloody murder, and being very, very rude to everybody that worked at the airline and very demanding. His wife is upset. His daughter's crying. And he said, "We have this, is a dream thing, we have all of our clothes. We need... This is a wedding on the ship." And they were guests, she wasn't the bride in terms of the daughter or anything, but this was a big deal and he's very, very upset. And he's not listening.

 

The woman's explaining, "Sir, we have hurricanes. We've done everything we can. There's nothing we can do. I assure you, we know where your luggage is. I cannot get it here before the cruise leaves, but it is in Tampa." Orlando to Tampa is, I don't know, depending on traffic, hour and a half tops. And I'm sitting here thinking to myself, why don't you just close your mouth, stop yelling. See if you can get your wife and your daughter into some local hotel. Try to rent a car. I don't know if this is possible, but it's the only option. And then drive over to Tampa, pick up your luggage and get back. It's just an option that wasn't even remotely going to be on his radar. He, he just decided to be angry and rude.

 

And that situation really stuck with me over the years, too. And the learning, for me, and it just was so... I talk about it in some of my other podcasts, listening to your life. It was so loud in terms of the message and the message to me was rudeness and demands get you nowhere. And sometimes, you're the only person that can solve the problem. Give it a shot.

 

Now I've been traveling for ALPS for 23 years now. And we love to vacation. Have traveled abroad a few times and all over the country for all kinds of vacations. So trust me when I say that time in Orlando with our lost luggage was not the first time I've had to deal with a canceled flight. Or changes... I mean, when COVID hit in the shutdowns, you know, boy, all kinds of plans got crazy.

 

I've had my fair share of having to deal with customer support people in both in-person and online. And I, again, I have seen time and time again, and particularly in person at airports, just as an example, of people in front of me, again, yelling and just screaming and trying to have things done. And it doesn't get you anywhere. My response is, okay. So a flight's been canceled and there are, depending on the size of the plate, anywhere from 50 to 250 people, they got to rebook and deal with. And I'm sitting here thinking, do you folks not get it? The people that you're yelling at and demanding something from have nothing to do with the problem.

 

They didn't... I had a situation where that the windshield of an airplane was broken on the way down. And we had to wait overnight for a new windshield to come in. They can't fly the plane without a windshield, I mean that just isn't going to happen. And I said, it's not this person's fault. I always approach these folks as this is my new best friend. Because I've learned over and over again, if you just treat them with some level of courtesy and polite. Sometimes, the first thing I'll say, "Man, it looks like you are having a rough day. And I know this isn't your fault. I am so sorry that all of us are having to go through this experience, but you know what these things happen."

 

And I'll tell you every single time I have treated people with just a little dignity, little respect, a little politeness, my problem was solved in almost every situation pretty quickly. I'll be booked on an immediate flight. I've literally heard peoples say five or six times ahead of me as all these people are yelling, "The best we can do is Tuesday to get you out of here." And on and on and on. And then I'll walk up and just put a little smile and say, "I'm sorry, you're having a rough day." And I'm on a flight six hours later.

 

People will...if you treat people with respect, sometimes just solutions can appear. So I guess to me, that's the learning of this one. I've learned that being courteous and polite leads to solutions for me, even where others have found none. I don't know that it should be this way necessarily, but it is what it is. People are going to respond to anger and rudeness and disrespect differently than they're going to respond to when someone has some compassion and takes the time to be polite and takes the time to wait. I'm sorry, this may take another 10 minutes. I'm doing... Ma'am please don't worry. I got all the time in the world. You are helping me. It's good. Relax. We're fine. So something to think about.

 

I also can share that my wife and I now we've been married 20 years. Coming up on 21 here pretty soon, in fact. But we're a Brady family. The number of years ago we went through this challenge of trying to put a step family together. And I'm proud to say we did that very successfully. To this day, our kids, in terms of even the step-kids, everybody views each other as family, in other words. And they're all long since gone and independent and have families of their own, some of them, and everybody still is very, very close and we are a family.

 

I will tell you, that's not easy and there are challenges. But one of the things that I learned out of this whole experience was the value of playing what I have come to call long ball in terms of building relationships, maintaining relationships. And to me, it's sometimes this is, well, I guess I should say what I discovered, sometimes it's worth losing in the short term. Whether there's a debate, or an argument, or just a disagreement. It's worth losing in the short term sometimes, or even just learning to give a little, to negotiate and find a solution here in order to eventually gain a lot more. It's a concept, this idea, this notion of long ball, as I call it, has been truly in so many ways, a game changer for me in terms of how I try to live my life.

 

I've talked about this long ball, so learning from the experience, but I want to really describe what I mean by long ball and how that learning has come about. And really what it's about is, is saying I've come to appreciate that you really, and I'm speaking personally, I really want to try every chance I get to not allow someone else to pull me in to dealing with some irrelevant or ultimately irrelevant kind of issue. There are big problems and little problems. I'm going to try to dismiss the little problems and lose now and again, or whatever, because I've got my eyes on a different game. I'm looking longterm. So it's about not taking the bait and staying engaged in every single minor issue that someone wants to keep me engaged with.

 

Sometimes this could be an ex. Sometimes this is children. Sometimes of stepchildren. But it's about saying I don't want to be pulled off game. And the way I see it, and the more I've kind of tried to do this in my life, and I started this, to be honest with you, before the step family. It's just that experience putting the step family together really kind of cemented a lot of this. But in my experience over the years, so many times people who are being confrontational really are playing a very short game. They want the win and they want it now. And they may keep doing it over and over hoping to keep engaged with this dysfunction or it may give them a sense of powers. I don't know, everybody's different. But I just choose not to play that game. I choose to focus long-term.

 

So what is the point? And, I want to sort of summarize some of the learnings here and take it up a notch in terms to a bigger picture. Why are these stories that I've just shared, the insights that I've just shared important to me? And it gets back to sort of problems, whether it's confrontation. Whether it's just things going off the rail in so many ways. I sit and I've come to say, whenever there is an issue, a problem, whatever that means to you, I stop and say, I kind of asked myself that question. I try to categorize it and say, is this something I can change? Is this something I can influence? Or is this something I have no control over at all? Can't do anything about.

 

Once I make that determination, I will sit and say, okay, now my goal is to try to spend the most energy of what I have on things that I can change. I will try to spend some energy on things I can influence. And I try to spend no energy on something I can't do a darn thing about. And it's very difficult at times to do that, but I really believe there's value in sort of running through that analysis. So these are some personal things that I've been sharing and some insights that I think are very valuable. I'd love our grandson to hear at some point, course when he's old enough to appreciate what I'm even talking about. But these are things I've talked to my children about, and I have tried to teach and give them some tools because I have found to be very, very valuable.

 

But I can also hear you saying, okay, so what's the point here, Mark? In terms of the context of a podcasts on risk management resource site here for a malpractice insurer. What's a fair question? And it's a fair question. And here's what I would encourage you to think about. The context of these learnings that's change from my personal experience, to the context of being civil in the practice of law. Confrontation is out there. There are some lawyers that really practice incivility in a very significant way and are very intentional about it. But when I look at saying, okay, when faced with rudeness with uncivil behaviors, in my mind, in my experience, the perfect foil to that is formal politeness. Which by the way, is the definition of civility. But I tend to state it in a slightly different way. Instead of using the word formal politeness, I try to be intentional with my politeness.

 

Now I'll be the first to admit that I remain a work in progress with all of this. But the better I get at it, the more I practice it, the greater the benefits I see in experience. And it even starts to change little things around to me. Others become more polite. It just kind of spreads. It's like when you yawn, take our little grandson, and you can yawn a little bit, then he'll yawn. It's contagious.

 

So I just encourage you to think about that. Because a lot of times when things go off the rail, others are trying to have some power over us to control the situation. Whether it's in a courtroom, in a deposition, in a negotiation, clients could be playing this game, all kinds of things, all kinds of places this can come up. So I encourage you to give some thought about being intentional with civility.

 

And for one last reason why, as I like to say, again for you regular folks that know sort of my, the way I tend to talk and way I summarize things, is I see it to do it any other way is just wasting energy. Life is too short as it is. So there are just a couple of thoughts. In some ways, I've shared some things that I look forward to years from now, sitting down and having a conversation with our grandson and sharing some of this and hoping that that may be of use to him. But until that time, I hope this will be useful to you as well. So thanks for listening. Hey, it's been a pleasure. Have a good one folks.

ALPS In Brief - Episode 58: The Vera Project

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Hello, I'm Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager here at ALPS. And welcome to another episode of ALPS In Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. Today, I wanted to spend a little time and share some backgrounds, introduce you to et cetera, to what I have called over the recent year project Vera.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

If you have visited our website of late, you may have seen a pop-up with a Llama, and an invitation to click on a link and participate in an assessment. You may have seen some email with the similar invitation as we advertise for our silly services and whatnot. But I really want to just share what Vera is all about. We're very proud of Vera, and that it is the next evolution of the delivery of risk management services here at ALPS. And with that in mind, I thought it might be interesting to share a little history, how we got here, and then I'll share a little bit about what Vera is all about.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

But years ago, now I have been with ALPS for about 23 and a half years. The [inaudible 00:01:23] way it's just crazy how time flies, and risk services were in play prior to my arrival for a few years. And in those early years, we would write up some learnings and interesting claims, and share some learnings from them. We would write up some general articles, similar to what you might find on our blog today, but it was, of course, all paper back in those days, and you'd send these little newsletters out. But the bulk of the service, in terms of risk management services, really started with consulting.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And over the years, there are various names for this process, but really centered around just doing what we would call at RISC visit, and that sort of stood for Reduce Insured's Susceptibility to Claims, but it really was a consulting type thing. It was a fee service. And at one point there were three of us that were traveling basically two weeks a month around the country. And you fly into Iowa and you'd have all these visits set up and, and drive all over the state, and visiting with solo and small firms. And the point was really to just share with as many insurers as we can firsthand a lot of the intellectual capital that we obtained over the years in terms of what are we seeing in claims? What sort of best practices would help prevent some of this stuff?

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And so it was really about education, and also, over time, I really learned some value out of this was just creating relationships. We really had a lot of firms were so appreciative, and they'd invite us back every couple of years, because you don't do this every year, and they would call in with questions. And I really think it made a big difference in retention of our insurance base, but it also people feel free to call in more comfortable to call in and say, "Hey, we have this problem, or is this a concern? Should we re be reporting this?" And I really think that that made a difference over the years and in terms of trying to reduce claims, perhaps a little frequency, a little severity, but I'll be honest to say at the end, I think the biggest value of all this was the relationship building that, that occurred, And I was so privileged to be a part of that.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

That process, really what it entailed was I'd walk in and depending on the structure, there's a different process for a solo versus a firm of five attorneys, a couple associates in that kind of thing. But I would sit and spend some time going through a series of questions, and based upon the answers that, staff we would meet often separately or the attorneys, depending on the answers that they shared with us, we'd share some comments and some insights. And the goal was, again, to have a firm learn.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

After the conversations, I'd go back to the hotel, and I'd get into hot docs and we had all these templates, and we would write a report, and then follow up sending this report out. Then we'd have sample forms or articles that we felt might be of interest in terms of areas that we identified as a little bit of a concern in the sense. Perhaps they're not using closure letters at all. And here's some sample closer letters, and here are the benefits, the reasons why you really might want to spend some time looking at incorporating closure letters to the practice.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And so we've just covered all kinds of topics. A lot of fun, a lot of travel, crazy, crazy times for many years. It was just, wow. Trust me. I racked up a lot of miles.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Over time, however, there was a problem, and it's a good problem to have, don't get me wrong, but ALPS just continued to grow and grow and grow. And this is a very time-intensive, obviously, and expensive service to deliver. When you're a smaller company, you can, in terms of percentage of insurers that you're having the opportunity to work with, it's a fairly significant percentage. But nowadays, boy. I mean, we have staff of probably 10 or 15 lawyers out here trying to do this, and we still couldn't keep up. And so the model had to change, and we've played around with a number of different things for a few years after we stopped. Just again, it was just way too expensive to make this. This has never been a revenue generator in the sense of we're looking at this as a profit center. We really trying to break even. And if we can throw a little money into covering some other expenses with improvements to software, some things like that, that's all good.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

But we did get to a point where we had to say, "Okay, it's time to put the live process to bed and be done." And there was a lot of discussion internally about how do we transition? How do we continue to try to reach as many people as we can in terms of insurers, but not insurance as well? I mean isn't that a goal? I mean, you're sharing some internal discussions, it's just to help lawyers as much as we can to help the bar at large.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

There were some fits and starts with some different ideas. We looked at doing some online types of things, and again, fits and starts and just struggled working this out and even finding the right type of platform to do this. But over time, we finally got there, and the Vera project was conceived to be the next, if you will, generation of consulting. But it's all done now online, on demand, and for free. I mean, how great is that? So that's Vera.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

But as we sat down and looked at this, I really wanted to have some fun. I wanted to make a process that I think could be engaging, that could be valuable, but also be fun. I mean, I get frustrated times lecturing about how you're going to get sued, and telling all these stories, and then worse yet is all of the cybersecurity stuff, and at times it can be so overwhelming. I'm not always Mister Happy in terms of ethic, when people walk out of one of my seminars that we've just spent the last 90 minutes talking about all the ways you're going to get hacked, and it can be overwhelming.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

I wanted to have a little fun, and the idea was to create a character. Vera really stands for Virtual Ethics Risk Assessment, because the consulting, when we were doing it live, we did start to evolve into the ethics space as well. Look at trust accounting as an example, and talk about some other ethical issues.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And this evolution has continued as we get to Vera. The idea was let's turn this into a character, into some type of personality. And as we've talked, I kind of thought about wouldn't have spirit guide of some sort interesting. I'm kind of channeling some of the Star Trek kinds of things. Star Trek Voyager, in particular, there was a character there that was Native American, and would talk about spirit guides and have spirit guides. That just, I don't know, that just struck a chord with me. I always thought that was kind of cool. We came up with a llama, and as you begin to write and develop, you create a personality. And so Vera does have a personality, and that'll be important here in a minute in terms of just understanding what we're doing.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

The next step was to say, "How do we take the live consulting process and turn it into something that can be online on demand?" And I really just did an extensive rewrite, and also really tried to narrow down and center on some key things as an initial starting point. And so as I looked at the templates and all the things that we use when we were doing this in person, I really decided let's look at seven key areas. And the key areas that I decided to focus on are client intake, file documentation, calendaring, trust account procedures, sort of some general risk management types of things, cybersecurity, and then firm policies, plans, looking at some administrative type issues in a firm. And so with that framework, we sat down and developed some questions, had some fun creating some answers, and believe it or not, some of these answers that you can select are maybe a little, at times, what, really, that's kind of extreme. But I'm in being sincere and sharing. These answers really come out of the answer pool, if you will, from things that I heard over the years, and you just play with it a little bit to kind of make it fun.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

But so what, what would happen now is somebody can go in, and you work through a series of questions, and each of these categories currently have five questions. And so you've get a question about calendaring, and you can select from typically four to five answers, and based on the answer, you get a certain score and in each category, so calendaring, trust accounts, that kind of thing, gets a section score, and it all totals up then at the end to an overall score. And depending on the scoring that you get, even if you get it perfectly right, Vera will have a little feedback. It might be sharing some kudos, or it might be saying, "There might be some trouble ahead on the path that you're on." And then, so if the score is such that, again, it's not perfect, she just interacts in a pleasant advisory kind of guide perspective, share some thoughts, a little bit of advice, and often has some links to resources that have been developed here over the years, maybe articles that I think would be interesting and appropriate to whatever topic we're discussing, or Vera's responding to, and just sample forms again. That kind of thing.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

That's Vera in a nutshell in terms of what the process and sort of the personality is. In my mind Vera is, she's not artificial intelligence, I mean, we haven't gone that far, maybe someday you never know. But in my mind, she really is this virtual digital character that we have the pleasure to share with you and hope people will enjoy.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

If you were to now at this point, just perusing the website, up pops a link, or you get an email with a link, or you just decide you want to take a look at it at some point, what happens? Well, you can go to the website, and it happens to be www.ALPSinsurance.com/vera. V-E-R-A. And you can just go to the corporate website, and go to resources, and risk management. She'll pop up.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

It takes about 20 minutes. You go through some questions. You do need to answer every question. A blank is going to be scored as a zero, and you do need to give us an email address. But outside of that, we're not using the Vera as a tool to look at all these answers, and say, "Boy, if somebody ever applies or reapplies here, we see what they're really..." No. We have an email address solely for the purpose of allowing or enabling Vera to, as soon as you're finished, clicked on complete and all, she writes up this report, and we'll email it to you and you can do what you want with it. So, we need to have a valid email address to get that out. But beyond that, all your answers are anonymous, not tied to anything we do look at over time, how many people are answering B to question four or something like that, just to see where problems might be with the intent of developing additional resources, perhaps if there's a need. Just trying to identify where lawyers are struggling.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

But this is all anonymous. And the goal really is to share the intellectual capital in terms of risk management, claim prevention, staying out of trouble ethically, me even staying out of trouble with cyber breaches, and that kind of thing. Just to share that intellectual capital with as many lawyers as we can, regardless of their status with us in terms of being an insured or not. This is not about trying to just keep it all within the ALPS family. We are here to, truthfully, support the bar at large.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

My hope as an aside... As an aside isn't the right word. I'm just going to struggle here for a moment. But my hope is that in time this tool will be valued enough or utilized enough, that we can continue to broaden and expand the capabilities of what Vera does. We'll just have to see you over time what the pickup rate is perhaps, and also just would love to get some feedback. What do folks think about the tool? Is it useful? How might it be improved? What other topics do you think? I really see this as a way that the ALPS family can nurture and take this tool even to the next level, and be a part of the growth of Vera.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

How has Vera been received thus far? It's an interesting question. The pickups, the hits have been, I'll be honest and say a bit slow, but the folks that have gone through it, I have to share one story as a lawyer, actually here in Montana, a small firm, and really great guy. We talk at times, and years ago I've been out. But he emailed in, and he said, "We got this email about Vera, and decided I'm going to take the assessment." So he went through the assessment on his own, got this report back. He says, "I was so impressed, Mark. I sat down and the entire firm's staff, we all sat down and went through the assessment together." Now, they didn't get a hundred percent, so they develop an action plan afterwards. And the firm got together and developed an action plan. And I don't know what their answers were or where the problems are, but again, let's say they're not using engagement letters as much as they should. I don't know. Then they said, "Well, here's the plan. Let's start doing this." And the plan is they're going to work their action plan for three to six months, and then sit down together as a group again, and go through the assessment a second time with the goal of getting a hundred percent in terms of the score.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And we're all bright people. We gone through law school and passed the bar and are practicing. We're some bright people here. You really can gain Vera if you want. You can figure out what the right answer is, and get a hundred percent, but that's not how he's chosen to handle it. He said, "We answered honestly. We really want to use this as a learning tool." And I said, "Was there any criticism or feedback?" He says, "My only criticism, Mark, is that this tool wasn't available five years ago. It is just absolutely fantastic." Because he really sees it as an opportunity to improve internally. And I was so touched by that. That really meant a lot. And I just was so appreciative that he took the time to reach out and share that.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

I just wanted to pass that along. Vera is a labor of love. And as we talk here a little bit, I spend a lot of time trying to write and put this together, but I want to put a shout out to colleague at ALPS, Andrew Sweet. And, Andrew really is the guy behind the scenes that really brings Vera to life in terms of doing the art work, creating the Vera logo. There's a video that you get to see and hear, hear Vera speak. Andrew did all of this, and then really is the guy that made everything work in terms of the... I can sit and write a question, and I can sit and develop the layout of all this, but trust me, programming and putting all this, making Vera go, is not my bailiwick. I mean, I maybe could figure it out after a while, but, but Andrew's the guy that really did the heavy lifting.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And I also want to share kudos to the rest of my team is we all sat down. Because this is not a one person doing by any way, shape, or form. It was a group effort, and I'm just proud of the final product. And perhaps as a father or well, I have to say here's a side, just a few days ago, we became grandparents for the first time and are very proud and excited about that. And why I bring that up, it's sort of a similar feeling. We've created at ALPS a new project, a new product, called Vera that is real in so many ways to us.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

And I invite you if you've not taken the time to explore and look at her a little bit, to do so. It really is intended to be a tool, free, available anytime on demand, online, to share all the insights and learnings intellectual capital we have here at ALPS.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

I have rambled on enough. I will share the link one more time. www.ALPSinsurance.com/vera.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

That's it folks. I hope you had a little fun listening to me ramble on about the Vera project, and hey, I look forward to having the opportunity to see the numbers change, and hope Vera proves to be a valuable to tool to you as well.

Mark Bassingthwaighte:

Thanks all. Bye. Bye.

 

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